Palantas

All right, let’s go through this.

3. Being able to construct virtually anything…replicators can create every good that a person needs to function in a 24th century society.

3. Essentially' date=' yes. Except that I would add in that the replicators cannot build things that large only because of technical difficulties preventing the building of a large enough replicator, rather than an inability of replication technology to make that sort of thing.[/quote']

 

Let me rehash: I am disputing the idea that replicators can make all the goods Federation society needs. I am basing this claim on replicator’s inability to produce key products in a number of episodes.

 

I brought up…

1. The existence of vital materials that could not be replicated.

a. Romulan ribosomes.

b. Federation medical supplies.

c. Ketracel

2. Ferengi commerce.

 

Your rebuttal to 1a:

For one thing, we have no idea how simple or complex Romulan protein and RNA are. You are making assumptions based on Terran genomes, which are entirely invalid when dealing with extraterrestrial lifeforms.

 

I am making assumptions based on Terran genomes. We’re not talking about “extraterrestrial lifeforms†like ET or Jabba the Hutt here. We’re talking about Romulans. Are you aware that many of major races of the galaxy share genetic material (TNG: “The Chaseâ€ÂÂ)? The genes of humans, Vulcans, Romulans, and Klingons are so similar that they can mate and bear offspring (ST:IV, TNG: “The Emissaryâ€ÂÂ, TNG: “Redemption, Part IIâ€ÂÂ). Yes, I am making assumptions. I’m making assumptions after analyzing the available evidence, which indicates that replicators can’t make something as simple as strand of protein.

 

This is of course entirely academic. Romulans and Vulcans are the same species, although they separated over philosophical issues some centuries ago. (TNG: “Unification, Part IIâ€ÂÂ) This is not long enough for speciation to occur. We can conclude that Federation replicators are unable to produce a basic medical element for one of the founding races of the Federation.

 

Your rebuttal to 1b:

As for “medical substancesâ€ÂÂ, is it so hard to accept that the computers in Star Trek have limitations? Sure, they are light-years ahead of our own, but perhaps there are some things even too complex for them to handle, such as the replication of certain things.

 

This is a red herring at best, and actually supports my argument at the worst.

So the replicators can make anything, but the computers controlling the replicator’s systems aren’t up to the task? How does this not help support my notion that there’s lots of things replicators can’t make? Who cares if it’s the replicator itself, the computer running it, or Data’s inability to program good cat food that makes the replicator unable to produce a commodity? Do I have to spell it out that when I say “replicators†I mean the “entire replicators system including all relevant equipment necessary for the replication function� Are we going to have to start speaking in legalese here?

 

1c:

Ketracel. You can have the Ketracel thing. Following Jounin’s post, I obviously don’t know enough about this era of DS9 to effectively debate this in a public forum. It’s not like it was the center-piece of my argument.

 

And finally 2:

Well, replicators do not make alcohol, by design.

Quark’s replicators don’t make alcohol, by design? Is that what you’re saying? I hope not, because that’s just silly. I used booze as an example. Let’s expand that to include the “sum of all goods that the Ferengi trade with other races.â€ÂÂ

 

I have always assumed that they have figured out a way of processing deuterium into antideuterium with little or no energy cost, thus making the gains outweigh the costs. Otherwise, why the hell would they use it?

 

What do you base this on? I proposed a theory of why they use antimatter energy sources. “Antimatter reactors are used onboard starships, which need sudden, large spikes of power for warp travel and space combat. However, for steady state power generation, as on a planetary installation (or orbital mining station), fusion reactors are often used.â€ÂÂ

 

To which you replied:

However, as we have seen, the ships don't just use the antimatter reactors for Warp speed and phaser fire, they are on constantly. This is another thing that leads me to believe that the process, from creation of the antimatter to the gathering of released energy, is extremely efficient.

 

Do you know that words like “always†and “never†are ones you generally want to avoid in a debate? This includes things like “constantly.†There are several episodes of TNG where the antimatter drive is offline. I’m not going to list them, as that will take some digging (and you’ve not yet felt it necessary to source a single one of your claims).

 

And it gets better:

DS9 is powered by six fusion reactors, yes. Most likely because it is a Cardassian station, and they did not feel like (for whatever reason) putting in a matter/anti-matter reactor.

 

Are you being serious here? Is this your idea of a legitimate counter-argument? I propose a theory, and then list some facts that would seem to support it. Your response is “they did not feel like it...for whatever reason.†I’m assuming this was meant for humor.

 

All this leads conclude that replicators do not function on a subatomic level. If they did, then they should be able to make anything. As they demonstrably cannot make anything and everything, then they obviously don’t work at a subatomic level, and more to the point, they are unable to produce all the goods and services the Federation needs. Replicators do not form the basis of the Federation’s moneyless society.

 

There’s been some new material on this thread regarding the actual Federation economy, so I’m going to respond to that and the remaining issues in your last post later.

Dilithium cannot be replicated, and takes a very long time to manufacture. They will run out of it, eventually, unless they figure out a way to better maufacture it.

 

So, my whole point is that the Federation's economy is not sustainable indefinitely.

You addressed the first part of my previous post, which was mostly meant for humor. And the second part? Simply restating your opion about a subject, without introducing any new evidence--or addressing others' counterarguments--is not a rebuttal.

Let me try again. Large societies with real economies don't just "run out" of a resource and cease functioning. They evolve, harnessing new resources to take the place of old ones. Today's world isn't going to suddennly run out of oil, and (like I said before), be like, "Oh no! We're out! Where'd it go? What do we do now?" As oil becomes more scarce, it will become more expensive to harvest. As this occurs, alternatives will become more and more economically viable for firms to develop.

In the case of the Federation, there are other high-power energy sources besides ones relying on dilithium (TNG: "Timescape"). They are perhaps less well-developed in the Federation or more cost prohibitive. However, these hurdles will be overcome as a matter of necessity once they begin to "run out" of dilithium crystals.

So...deuterium can be manufactured' date=' then? In that case, I would say that it is dilithium, not deuterium, which will limit the UFP's economy.[/quote']

 

Christ, you're fast on these things. I'm still writing my rebuttal to the main post.

 

So yeah, deuterium can be manufactured/collected and will never, ever, run out. I don't know the first thing about chemistry, but it's not that hard to Google this stuff.

 

I guess we'll keep going on this side-note too. There's too issues I see with your statement. According to you, replicators can make anything, basically for free; so they can just keep making dilithium unil the end of time. Second, the Federation's not going to just run out of dilithium and be like, "Oh no, we're screwed." Assuming they operate something like a plausible society with a real economy (what our main argument is about), they'll gradually move to another source of energy as the opportunity cost of mining/synthesizing dilithium becomes to high.

I was referring to the Federation as a whole. It has not yet run out of deuterium' date=' and thus it has not yet run out of resources.[/quote']

 

Here I am going to (partially) disagree. They will run out of deuterium. It is apparent that they go through it like there is no tomorrow' date=' and will as such use up all the deuterium in the Federation eventually. The question is: how long will they be able to keep that up? I figure there is enough deuterium to keep up such practices for several centuries at [i']least[/i] before they run out.

 

Before I go any further, this needs to be addressed. I’m putting this in a separate post, since it doesn’t really have anything to do with the main argument.

 

This isn’t a difference of opinion; this is just silly. Deuterium is hydrogen. Do you know that hydrogen is the most common element in the universe? For sake of argument, let’s do some calculations. (I do not have a science background, so anyone with knowledge in this area…feel free to correct my methods or math. My sources for these figures is the Wikipedia.)

 

The mass of the Sun is 2x10^30kg, 75% of this being hydrogen.

2x10^30kg x .75 = 1.5x10^30kg of hydrogen in the Sun.

 

1kg of antimatter reacting with 1kg of matter produces 1.8x10^17 J.

 

1.5x10^30kg x 1.8x10^17 x .5= 1.35x10^47 J produced by reacting all of the hydrogen in the Sun with an appropriate amount of antimatter, times 50% efficiency.

 

A Galaxy class starship as of Stardate 42568.8 is incapable of generating more than 1 TW (TNG: "The Dauphinâ€ÂÂ), but we’ll just use 1 TW for sake of brevity. (A watt = joules per second.)

 

1.35x10^47 / 1x10^12 = 1.35x10^35 TJ

1.35x10^35 TJ / 60 / 60 / 24 / 365 = 4.28x10^27

4.28x10^27 / 1x10^12 = 4.28x10^15

 

That’s 4,280,000,000,000,000 years that a billion GCS’s could be powered by the amount of hydrogen (plus same amount of antimatter) that can be found in a single Sun-type star. Obviously, this figure is far in excess of the age of the universe, and one billion is far in excess of the number of starships that the Federation possesses.

 

I trust we can lay this issue to rest.

 

TNG's first episode shows Torpedoes fired backwards at Warp 9.5. As do many many other episodes from TOS through to DS9.

 

If torpedoes fired sub-light--- the enemy could just warp away & outrun them.

Disclaimer: I haven't conducted an exhaustive survey to confirm or deny this.

However...While torpedoes are fired at warp speeds, they are always fired at a target also at warp moving at a similar speed to the firing vessel. We never see any examples of "warp strafing."

Are you claiming that torpedoes always go to warp when they are fired? I find this idea rather difficult to reconcile with the visual evidence. Are you really saying that every torpedo fired in Star Trek is moving in excess of c?

Let me summarize what I believe are your points:

1. Federation matter/antimatter power sources provide more energy than the Federation could hope to use.

2. Replicators function on direct matter to energy conversion.

3. Being able to construct virtually anything (excepting extremely large parts like starship hulls), replicators can create every good that a person needs to function in a 24th century society.

4. Since their material needs are satisfied, Federation citizens work for free, creating unlimited resources for the Federation.

I’ll address these more or less in order.

Because there has never been an episode in which they said "Sir, we are out of deuterium" (sorry for the previous misspellings, by the way).

That’s a red herring. Deuterium is a fuel source used to power the reaction. The presence or absence of deuterium was never an issue when the Enterprise was running low on power.

This has minimal impact on what we’re talking about, but I’ll say again, they’re not going to run out of deuterium. There’s certainly more deuterium in our solar system than there is iron or any of the heavy elements prevalent on Earth.

I wasn’t picking on your spelling. I hate nitpickers. I didn’t know if it actually said “duterium†instead of “deuterium†in some sourcebook. I thought the writers might be inventing elements again.

An issue I have yet to see addressed here is, “Where do they get the antimatter?†You don’t just go collect antimatter off a star like you do with deuterium. You have to make it. We can make antimatter today. It just requires millions of times more energy than is released when you actually collide a deuterium atom with your newly created antideuterium. Obviously, after 300 years, this process will have likely become more efficient, but there still must be some net energy loss in generating the antimatter in the first place. (I know for a fact the TM addresses this issue directly. Mine’s in a box somewhere in the garage, unfortunately.) Furthermore, antimatter is very dangerous and requires the presence of magnetic containment fields which themselves draw some juice. The use of fusion reactors implies there are at least some limits to the scale and practicality of antimatter-driven devices. Deep Space Nine is powered by six fusion reactors. (“The Science in Science Fictionâ€ÂÂ)

The following is just my theory:

Antimatter reactors are used onboard starships, which need sudden, large spikes of power for warp travel and space combat. However, for steady state power generation, as on a planetary installation (or orbital mining station), fusion reactors are often used.

Addressing Point 1, the notion that “since the Federation has matter/antimatter reactors, they have essentially limitless energy†is questionable.

Moving on to Points 2 & 3, it is highly suspect that replicators operate on direct energy to mass principles. If this were the case, why is there any substance that replicators cannot make? You mention Ketracel, which is a drug. As it is a drug, it must be devoid of heavy elements, or it would be incredibly toxic to carbon-based organisms. Even further along this line are the ribosomes than the Enterprise computer was unable to fabricate. There’s nothing at all atomically complex about protein and RNA. Let me quote Dr. Crusher from “The Enemy†again, “the molecules are too complex.†This would suggest that the Enterprise’s replicators cannot alter substances on a molecular level, let alone at the atomic or subatomic. How often is the Enterprise shuttling around some desperately needed plot device…err, I mean medical substance (TNG: “Code of Honorâ€ÂÂ), or the Ferengi wheeling and dealing for some new booze (DS9: “Rules of Acquisitionâ€ÂÂ)? Why would anyone be doing any of this if the replicators could just squirt this stuff out for free?

I watched them. Did you think that a starship could be replicated whole?

No, I don’t think starships can be replicated whole, although you’ll run into plenty of people around the net who hold to this crazy idea. I’m of quite the opposite opinion, as I detailed above. If replicators are not up the task of assembling biological components, they’re hardly capable of producing the alloys of a starship’s hull.

No, each piece must be replicated, then put together by a team of engineers over the course of several months (at least). Then the ship must be tested (not to mention STAFFED. Excess of RESOURCES, not excess of PERSONNEL), and all the bugs must be fixed. Only then, after nearly a year (if everything was hurried) can one single new ship be launched. The Dominion had more battle resources because making that sort of thing takes a long time, not because the Federation couldn't do it.

For future discussions, let’s define “resources†to mean “factors of production.†It seems you may have been using “resources†and “energy†(like electrical-type energy) synonymously, which has led to some confusion. Let’s assume that the Federation does have tons of excess energy (which I don’t), giant terawatt Duracells orbiting Earth and so on. But when you can’t use all of this extra juice to get a GCS built any faster than a year, then it doesn’t do you a lot of good. When you have colonies plagued by famine and “roving rape gangs†(TNG: “Where No Ones Has Gone Beforeâ€ÂÂ) because you can’t actually distribute this energy in order to power replicators for food and condoms, then it doesn’t do you a lot of good. Keeping this in mind, we have to re-evaluate the utopia-through-replicators idea.

So...because somebody is a miner, instead of a starship captain, their services are not free? A limit of people is only a limit of resources if you see people as resources, which I do not. The people are the ones using the resources. And there are more than enough people to get things done in the Federation, anyways. How else would the Federation have survived for so long? And the equipment is not limited, in that anybody, anywhere, can create more (with the exception of things too large to replicate). I fail to see how you have demonstrated a lack of resources.

Yes, people are factors of production. You’re displaying an ignorance of basic economic theory. People (households) sell land, labor and capital to firms, which produce goods and services, which are bought by households. Money goes in the opposite direction.

How are there more than enough people to get things done? You just said that Starfleet DIDN’T have an excess of personnel with which to crew starships.

Let me reiterate the last part of Point 5: “The Federation has unlimited resources.†You said that. That’s a quote. Let me make sure I understand your reasoning…people in the Federation work for free, so none of the goods they produce go back into maintaining them. Is the Federation at large some sort of perpetual motion machine?

I was never trying to prove that the Federation lacked resources, or that their economy was shrinking. As long as the Federation is expanding, then that would indicate that they have a surplus of capital that they can re-invest instead of consume. I challenged the idea that since their workers aren’t paid with money, that their labor is therefore free.

I’m challenging the capabilities of replicators to satisfy the needs of Federation society to the point that its trade with surrounding powers is minimal. I’m challenging replicators’ capacity to completely satiate human greed.

Finally, in response to this post, I’m challenging the idea that the Federation has “unlimited†resources. If the Federation has unlimited resources, then they should demonstrate unlimited capabilities. I really don’t think you meant to say that, or if you did, you meant it in hyperbole.

Seems if you suspend disbelief while watching something like Star Trek, the fact that they don't ram vessels at warp would lead one to conclude that this maneuver is either impossible or impractical.

These objects, moving at near-lightspeed or over-lightspeed velocities would have enough Kinetic Energy to instantly liquefy a planet. 1/2 mv^2 = 1/2(2000 kgs)( 299,792,458 m/s)^2 = 898,755,178,736,817,640,000

The fact that these effects do not occur would seem to prove that warp ramming involves elements with which we are not familiar.

It doesn’t make them unlimited' date=' but it does make them free.[/quote']

No, it doesn't make it free. Everything has an opportunity cost. Explain what you mean by "free� (More below.)

 

The Federation mines the duterium' date=' and then uses it for matter/antimatter engines, which generate far more energy than was used to mine it in the first place. The Federation is on a surplus of energy. Having the ability to convert energy into matter via replicators… [/quote']

You're simplifying the Federation’s entire economy and industrial capacity into “a surplus of energy.†How do you know there’s a surplus of energy? If replicators in fact operate, as you suggest, by converting energy into matter, then the energy cost of creating something as simple as a glass of water are astronomical. And the Federation has a surplus of resources? When did this happen? Did you not watch all those episodes of DS9 where the Federation was at risk of losing to the Dominion? This clearly implies that they could not produce all the starships and military equipment they needed, hence they do not have an excess of resources. The war with the Dominion aside, if the Federation has a large surplus of industrial resources, this would imply that these resources are unused, and that the Federation economy is highly inefficient (which may or may not be true).

 

…makes it so that the Federation needs only those things which are both necessary' date=' and cannot be replicated. And those things can just about all be gotten on Federation worlds.[/quote']

There are limits to what replicators can produce. This was explicitly demonstrated in 3x07 “The Enemy,†where Dr. Crusher is unable to replicate ribosomes for a Romulan patient, because “the molecules are too complex.†There’s nothing particularly complex about ribosomes. Although this fails to establish clear limits to replicator technology, it certainly implies they exist. At the very least, replicators are unable to provide all the goods necessary to meet the needs of Federation citizens.

 

However' date=' until then, they have no need for money. (What, did you think they needed to "pay" the miners? [/quote']

First, I’m not arguing that the Federation doesn’t pay government employees, at least not in the way we think. What I am arguing is this idea that because you don’t have to pay people, then their labor becomes free, and mining deuterium or anything else suddenly becomes free. If you have people and equipment mining deuterium (see below) then you’re not using these resources in some other industry. Nothing’s free. And we’ve moved from the miners getting everything they “need†for free to everything they “want†for free. Replicators have gone from being able to freely provide 100% of a populations basic needs to being founts of human happiness. I’ve always thought that replicators alone failed to explain the apparent utopia of the Federation’s core systems.

 

Eventually' date=' the Federation will run out of duterium. At that point in time, their way of life will be unsustainable. [/quote']

On a final note, correct me if I'm wrong, but we're talking about "deuterium" here, right? That's an isotope of hydrogen. They don't need to really mine it, they just collect it. And it’s certainly never going to run out.

 

Name: Michael T. Vawter

Age: 23

Occupation: Military/Student

Location: Louisville, Kentucky, United States of America

TV Shows: Family Guy, TNG, DS9, South Park

Hobbies: Alcohol-assisted socializing, skiing, tennis, working out

Interests: European automobiles, Breitlings, small unit tactics

My favorite is Picard, followed by Kirk. I grew up watching TNG and the movies, so I think of these two when someone says "Star Trek captain." I also think that Patrick Stewart is in a different class than all the others when it comes to acting ability.

And as to Exterus' question about how the Federation gets all their duterium (what is used in the matter/antimatter engine): they mine it from Federation worlds' date=' thus making it free.[/quote']

 

I think that's an oversimplification. Just because because duterium is harvested from a Federation system doesn't make it "free." Eliminating money doesn't suddenly make everything free and your resources unlimited.

I'm a junior lieutenant. I've never watched Enterprise. I think that's what hurt me.

The Next Generation, Season 5, Episode Seven: Unification, Part I. Cpt. Picard and Cmdr. Data are onboard a Klingon Bird of Prey, sneaking to Romulus. The Klingon Captain shows them to their quarters, then leaves.

Picard: "The Klingons must find it amuzing to put us in here together."

Data: "Since I do not require sleep, I propose you take the...shelf, sir. I am content to stand."

Picard: "Very well, Mr. Data. Thank you."

[Picard lays down on the hard, flat Klingon "bed."]

Data: "Are you comfortable, sir?"

Picard: "I suppose so."

Data: "Good night, captain. Sleep well, sir."

Picard: "Thank you."

[Picard tries to go to sleep. Data stands motionless in the center of the room.]

[After a few seconds, Picard slowly turns around to look at Data.]

Picard: "What are you doing?"

Data: "Sir? Was I making noise, sir?"

Picard: "Not exactly."

Data: "I was processing all the information we have accumulated on Romulan society. I am preparing for the task of impersonating a Romulan."

Picard: "I see."

Data: "Would you like me to discontinue, sir."

Picard: "No. No, please go on."

[Picard turns over to go back to sleep. After a few seconds, he slowly opens his eyes and turns around. Data is now motionless, staring directly at him.]

Picard: "What are you looking at?"

Data: "I am not looking at anything, sir. I am continuing to organize my files."

Picard: "But you were looking at me."

Data: "I am sorry if I was disturbing you, sir. I will not look in your direction."

[Data turns to the right, giving Picard an odd look as he does. He again stands motionless in the middle of the room.]

[Picard slowly turns over once again to go to sleep, then abruptly gets up.]

Data: "Do you not wish to sleep, sir?"

Picard: "I don't think so, Mr. Data. Let's, eh, let's go on with the files."

[Picard stands with his arms crossed, blinking tiredly as Data rambles on about Romulan culture.]

That was a little longer than I thought it would be. Anyway, go watch it. It cracks me up.

Arktis, That one where Cpt. Picard draws a smiley in the gas cloud of the exploding Enterprise warp core was damn funny. I was watching that one the other day, and beer came through my nose.

I do think that downloading music, movies, and similar media is somewhat stealing in so far as I'm enjoying an intellectual property without paying anything for it. I also really don't care. I bought all Babylon 5 on DVD for about $50 a season. Then a friend of mine got me on to downloading TV shows, so I get to watch Star Trek other neat stuff for free. It really doesn't bother me that some fat cat's making less money or some poor CD factory worker's children are going hungry. Besides, I'm only stealing from a single industry. That money I saved on Family Guy DVDs I'm going to spend on wine or watches or some other commodity I enjoy. So it's not like I'm hurting the economy.

In regards to the fat cats, I can't blame them for trying to protect their bottom line. They're going to lose eventually, I think. Radio, TV shows, and movies are going to be largely subscription based in the future.

I'm in the military. My company deals in naked American imperialism at the expense of vast human suffering. Alternatively, we might work in spreading truth, justice, and enlightenment. My occupation is very controversial these days.

It seems the point of this thread revolves around the fact that US politicians pose their agendas in a positive, morally righteous light, when their true aims may be more self-serving. Is the United States somehow unique in this? Countries pursue policies that they believe help themselves.

If individuals in Europe or elsewhere in the world truly despise the United States and its foreign policy, then I suggest that they support leaders in their own countries who advocate political, economic, or military opposition to these policies. If you speak of stupid US voters who empowered President Bush, then consider your own voters and leaders who are too impotent to stop him.