Antipodean Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I'm starting this thread with a reply to a comment from the " Looks like France elected someone as bad (worse?) than Bush!" Thread. It just makes more sense to move it all to a new topic! How about starting a thread about all the nations American has defended that are ungrateful? If it wasn't for American the world would be in an even worse shjtcan than now. Name me one single nation that has actually been successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2? Lets check the record - well South Korea is still a democracy - but it was the UN that organised that particular intervention. Vietnam - Nice work bombing children with napalm. Nuff said. Panama - Invaded a country on account of its politics and killed thousands of innocent Panamanians, Panama still resents the invasion. Granada - ditto - invading against the wishes of the British Commonwealth 1st Iraq War - killed thousands of Iraqi's in defence of Kuwait. A monarchy with a poor human rights record. Not forgeting the fact that it was the US that installed & armed Saddam in the first place. 2nd Iraq War: Killed 10s of thousands of Iraqi's in the name of "liberty' and oil. Invaded with no exit strategy... and suprise suprise, the US is already building 14 PERMANENT military based in Iraq because they NEVER plan to leave. How very imperialist. Kosovo - I'll give you that one. Clinton was a good fella. Afghanistan - I'll concede that one too. President Karzai is a 2 faced jackal, but he is infinately preferable to the barbarian regime the Taliban were running. So in SIX DECADES, where the US was averaging one war a decade, they got only TWO of them right... Seriously, when are you yankees going to realise, YOUR COUNTRY DOESN'T REALLY GO TO WAR FOR LIBERTY... thats just the bull they spin to get you lot to go along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I'm starting this thread with a reply to a comment from the " Looks like France elected someone as bad (worse?) than Bush!" Thread. It just makes more sense to move it all to a new topic! How about starting a thread about all the nations American has defended that are ungrateful? If it wasn't for American the world would be in an even worse shjtcan than now. Name me one single nation that has actually been successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2? Well...firstly...nowhere in my post did I mention a date/time/era (which I should have). I was, however, refering to the times leading up to and including WWII. I also did not use the term "liberated". I can't argue with your thoughts on Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, etc (ad nauseam) and have no wish to (I'm a bit surprised you didn't throw in the Native Americans since we plainly stole their lands). As an American I know my country has done wrong. I also know my country has done some very good things. America has only been around for some 200 odd years. Eurpoe has been around a heck of a lot longer. As the song goes..."Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself". I'm simply growing tired of all the anti-American crap being spouted on this site (and others). True or not. What the heck does anyone think they can accomplish by ranting about America here? If you wanna change the world shut your mouth and start this minute ~ Cracker c4 :thinking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 c4evap: I understand your feelings concerning anti-americanism. Let me assure you that my feelings towards the US government don't extend to the american people in any way shape or form. I love so much of what Americans have given to the world. From star trek, to jazz, to some very important ideals on democracy & freedom of speech. More often than not, my comments here about US policy & wars & such have been in response to claims made by others here which I felt compelled to respond to. Anybody interested in these issues might be interested in the following words from US President Eisenhower: This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. I think most people would accept that what Eisenhower feared, has come to pass, and that this is to the detriment of both the American citizenry and the world at large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 c4evap: I understand feelings concerning anti-americanism. Let me assure you that my feelings towards the US government don't extend to the american people in any way shape or form. I love so much of what Americans have given to the world. From star trek, to jazz, to some very important ideals on democracy & freedom of speech. More often than not, my comments here about US policy & wars & such have been in response to claims made by others here which I felt compelled to respond to. Sorry. I didn't mean you in particular. Just the general anti-american feeling that seems to be pervading this forum of late. But I do agree with some of things said about America. Believe me...I'm no dyed-in-the-wool flag waving shaveneck. There's a ton wrong with this country...but we are no different than any other nation. We can be arseholes or angels. People say they love America until the handouts stop then we are evil. America has given quite a bit of aid (medicine, food, clothing, etc) to the rest of the world at the expense of their own people (ouch...my taxes are killing me). If it were up to me...I'd keep all that green home where it belongs (moi bad/moi poor). Time after time we find out the aid we have given turns up on some poor nations black market. So, here's the USA doing something nice only to have it subverted. What a freakin' world! ...gotta go...my tea is ready...pEacE c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S0V13T Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Why can't we live in peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I hate to interrupt here, but I've just started a thread about this very thing. Perhaps I should delete it and move it's initial post into this topic? Edit: nope, can't do that... I tried without success. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Why can't we live in peace? I think war is just too profitable. Just ask Haliburton - they'll tell ya! ;) Eg: LEADING ARMS SUPPLIERS Country Value of 2004 deliveries (US $billionn) United States 18.5 Russia 4.6 France 4.4 UK 1.9 Germany 0.9 Canada 0.9 China 0.7 Israel 0.5 Libya 0.3 Source: Defence Analysis Department, International Institute for Strategic Studies/ US Congress And thats exports people - it doesn't include domestic arms spending - and its only the legitimate trades, the ones that show in the books. Interesting isn't it, that the top FIVE nations above, that is, the FIVE nations that most stand to benefit financially from war, well... they are also the FIVE permanent members of the UN Security Council, with a right of veto in the one international body that is most supposed to promote peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Interesting isn't it' date=' that the top FIVE nations above, that is, the FIVE nations that most stand to benefit financially from war, well... they are also the FIVE permanent members of the UN Security Council, with a right of veto in the one international body that is most supposed to promote peace...[/quote'] Well, actually that is sort of, to be expected, these countries are not that interested in peace per-sé, but more in power and using that power to further their own goals. What better way to do this than via an organisation that 'monitors' other nations. Another possibility to get power is via military means, so that's where the military spending/trade comes into place. Aah, but what can we do, it is the way of the world,.... People simply arent that interested in these things, as long as they themselves are happy and safe, everything else can be 'damned', that too is the way of the world. I've accepted this and just go-with-the-flow and hope for the best, not the most active solution, but it is the least frustrating one... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Why can't we live in peace? Bacause peas are too small and...oh wait...you said peace...never mind. :p I hate to interrupt here' date=' but I've just started a thread about this very thing. Perhaps I should delete it and move it's initial post into this topic? Edit: nope, can't do that... I tried without success. :mad:[/quote'] Just posted in said thread. Good thread and words well said Arktis. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Name me one single nation that has actually been successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2? I wonder why it is that Europeans always forget the TRILLIONS of dollars we spent defending Western Europe from Soviet Communist Invasion?!?!? Unappreciate bas****s. Maybe we should have pulled out during the Berlin Airlift Crisis, said "Oh well", and just left Russia run over Europeans' broken, burned-out buildings. (angry) troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quosego Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Name me one single nation that has actually been successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2? I wonder why it is that Europeans always forget the TRILLIONS of dollars we spent defending Western Europe from Soviet Communist Invasion?!?!? Unappreciate bas****s. Maybe we should have pulled out during the Berlin Airlift Crisis, said "Oh well", and just left Russia run over Europeans' broken, burned-out buildings. (angry) troy Might I ask what this has to do with recent developments... I helped you guys so we are entitled to screw the rest off the world..... I doubt that is how it works... I might agree that the americans were quite helpfull in WW2 but I'm not confinced they did it out of the goodness of their harts... I mean they didn't do anyhting untill they themsleves got attacked. And the berlin airlift was performed by the western allies not by the US alone... So this would be a good example of arrogance; The US fixed it you guys suck... And then there is the fact, what caused the berlin crisis... The Berlin problem was an accident, the result of bad planning and Cold War tensions. You might even say that the US is partly responsible. So it would be more than logical that they fixed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bones2097 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Interesting isn't it' date=' that the top FIVE nations above, that is, the FIVE nations that most stand to benefit financially from war, well... they are also the FIVE permanent members of the UN Security Council, with a right of veto in the one international body that is most supposed to promote peace...[/quote'] Well, actually that is sort of, to be expected, these countries are not that interested in peace per-sé, but more in power and using that power to further their own goals. What better way to do this than via an organisation that 'monitors' other nations. Another possibility to get power is via military means, so that's where the military spending/trade comes into place. Aah, but what can we do, it is the way of the world,.... People simply arent that interested in these things, as long as they themselves are happy and safe, everything else can be 'damned', that too is the way of the world. I've accepted this and just go-with-the-flow and hope for the best, not the most active solution, but it is the least frustrating one... ;) too right.. until goverments can get over the power trip we can never live in peace... ST kinda got it right elimiate money (possesion) & theres nothing to fight over!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 The Question Was : "Name me one single nation that has actually been successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2? " And the Answer Was: "Western Europe". That's the truth. For 45 years the United States spent Trillions of Dollars defending Europeans from enslavement by Stalin & other communist nutjobs. Funny how Europeans "forget" about that Cold War defense we provided & are so unappreciative of what we have done. "Stupid Americans. They have not down anything worthwhile." Fucking A! Which is one of the reasons I think the U.S. should abandon alls it European bases & tell the EU: "You don't like us? Fine. We're leaving. Good luck defending yourself. You can be damn sure, we won't be helping you with your next war." troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 For 45 years the United States spent Trillions of Dollars defending Europeans from enslavement by Stalin & other communist nutjobs. Funny how Europeans "forget" about that Cold War defense we provided & are so unappreciative of what we have done. "Stupid Americans. They have not down anything worthwhile." ####ing A! troy my country for example (back then called yugoslavia) wasnt part of any "side" in cold war, we were part of non aligned states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Coldwar_1980.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDad Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I'm starting this thread with a reply to a comment from the " Looks like France elected someone as bad (worse?) than Bush!" Thread. It just makes more sense to move it all to a new topic! How about starting a thread about all the nations American has defended that are ungrateful? If it wasn't for American the world would be in an even worse shjtcan than now. Name me one single nation that has actually been successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2? Lets check the record - well South Korea is still a democracy - but it was the UN that organised that particular intervention. At Eisenhower's request. Vietnam - Nice work bombing children with napalm. Nuff said. Not quite. Would you care to back this up with facts? Panama - Invaded a country on account of its politics and killed thousands of innocent Panamanians' date=' Panama still resents the invasion. [/quote']Politics is the cause for all wars. They may resent the US, but they no longer have a president for life. That would make them 'liberated'. Granada - ditto - invading against the wishes of the British Commonwealth Ditto? Was it politics? Of course. Are changes in their leadership due to elections now as opposed to coups? Yes' date=' that would qualify them as 'liberated'.[/color'] 1st Iraq War - killed thousands of Iraqi's in defence of Kuwait. A monarchy with a poor human rights record. Not forgeting the fact that it was the US that installed & armed Saddam in the first place. The US and many other countries killed thousands of invading Iraqi soldiers with UN approval. UN approval makes it OK' date=' doesn't it? The US 'installed' Hussein? Would you care to back this up with facts?[/color'] 2nd Iraq War: Killed 10s of thousands of Iraqi's in the name of "liberty' and oil. Invaded with no exit strategy... and suprise suprise' date=' the US is already building 14 PERMANENT military based in Iraq because they NEVER plan to leave. How very imperialist. [/quote'] I never saw the point myself. Don't forget that in three years, there will be a different president. To say that this administration's policies will be continued is a bit premature and foolhardy. Kosovo - I'll give you that one. Clinton was a good fella. Don't forget about Bosnia. Apparently US military action is acceptable only when cleaning up European messes. Afghanistan - I'll concede that one too. President Karzai is a 2 faced jackal' date=' but he is infinately preferable to the barbarian regime the Taliban were running. [/quote'] I'm sure he appreciates the sentiment. So in SIX DECADES' date=' where the US was averaging one war a decade, they got only TWO of them right... Seriously, when are you yankees going to realise, YOUR COUNTRY DOESN'T REALLY GO TO WAR FOR LIBERTY... thats just the bull they spin to get you lot to go along with it.[/quote']Actually, it's six out of eight. I am well aware of the deficiencies of the US as well as it's strengths. I do have a question, though. What part of the world do you hail from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 Vietnam - Nice work bombing children with napalm. Nuff said. Not quite. Would you care to back this up with facts? This is one of the most famous images from the Vietnam war. The naked girl's flesh is burning. It is from a newsreel titled: Children fleeing a napalm strike, Vietnam , 8 June 1972. Further responses to follow when I get home. As to where I hail from - I'm sure you'll try to use my geography to infer some indeptedness of my nation to yours, therefore somehow meaning I have no right to criticize poor policy from your government - BUT my nick is a clue. It's actually a bit of a dead giveaway... ;) I'm sure a bit of a google will clear it up 4 ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 With all the American bashing ("USA = Union of Stupid Arses"), I thought I'd share the wealth. What are Europeans guilty of? Just off the top of my head: British = overthrew a democratic government in Iran, 1956, and replaced with a puppet dictator. Sent troops to Iraq in 1991/2002. French = Also sent troops to Iraq in 1991/2002. Suppressed Vietnamese freedoms prior to 1960s & killed thousands. Germans = Where do I start? Spanish = Ditto (hint: Columbus enslaved the native americans he found). Now, why don't you Europeans just LAY OFF? I am sick and tired of this "Americans suck" bullshit. You're no better than Americans & have no right to criticize other people. Your nations are ALSO covered with blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quosego Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Hmmm last time I checked I'm an european to, however my country is not in the list of country's that did terrrible things. So do I have a right to criticise the USA??? or are my hands stained with the blood of thousands off people. Last time I checked I'm not an murderer. (this statement can be reversed if an european says your an evil american, but that didn't happen on this forum) And well.... your logic is totally flawed.... Just because the germans or some of them invaded a few country's back in 40-45 doesn't mean that nowadays their nation is evil dictatorship. To be honest they seem to be a lot less power hungry than the United states. The hate for the US is caused by recent events. Not some ancient war. And well the US screwed up big time , europe didn't, that gives us the right to criticice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bones2097 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 With all the American bashing ("USA = Union of Stupid Arses"), I thought I'd share the wealth. What are Europeans guilty of? Just off the top of my head: British = overthrew a democratic government in Iran, 1956, and replaced with a puppet dictator. Sent troops to Iraq in 1991/2002. French = Also sent troops to Iraq in 1991/2002. Suppressed Vietnamese freedoms prior to 1960s & killed thousands. Germans = Where do I start? Spanish = Ditto (hint: Columbus enslaved the native americans he found). Now, why don't you Europeans just LAY OFF? I am sick and tired of this "Americans suck" bull####. You're no better than Americans & have no right to criticize other people. Your nations are ALSO covered with blood. i'm geting fed up of ppl blurting out there thoughts before they think... even once ppl ^^^ to-shay.... germans you can't blame them for trying everyone was building empires!! but who actually used an atomic bomb!!! yes the spanish enslaved native indians But how made them almost extinict & shoved them into 'reserves'... british over thre the iraq gov ... how put sadam in that place??? freanch also killed thousands prior to 1960... how many died after that????? these wer off the top pof my head too!!!! what ever evils any nattion has done america has topped it!! in bucket loads!!!.... ppl can say what ever they like about america cause they got afoot in every ones doors esp the britsh... what you don't like the way we lick your bum???? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I don't think this is very constructive. How about talking about what we can DO about it? All of our governments are guilty in some way. We as groups give them their power and when they abuse it, we have a responsibility to act, not bicker amongst ourselves. That's what they'd like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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