Ulysses Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 Snag is DX10 is only for Vista at the moment, and most of us are using XP[br]Posted on: October 17, 2007, 04:09:20 AMChiggy, in your view would this one be a much better buy? http://www.eclipsecomputers.com/product.aspx?code=GCX-XN86GTS25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 There currently isn't a single mid-range dx10 card available worth purchasing. As Ulysses says, dx10 is only for vista and when the time comes to buy vista, he'll probably also buy a new computer (as its a lot cheaper that way). Further, all mid range dx10 cards seriously underperform, both in dx10 and dx9. Do not buy a 8600gt or gts, they are equally or more expensive than the 1950pro and slower! Them having dx10 support is a useless feature, as even the 8800gts cards get framerates of only 30-50fps on some dx10 games and 8600gts is 50% slower! If you: A: want a graphics card B: don't want it to consome too much power (ie. less than 120W max) C: want it now there's only one choice: 1950pro if you don't care about power consumption and price, 8800gtx is the best bet if you have the patience to wait 2-3 more months, you can wait for the nVidia 8700 desktop series or the new 8800gts series(will still consume a lot of power) or the amd hd2950pro, they will all be released and available within 3 months. :) edit: appearently there will be a namechange on the next gen ati cards: http://vr-zone.com/articles/RV670_is_Radeon_HD_3800_Series/5358.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 DX 10 for vista only? Not strictly true. Cody Brociuous over at Falling Leaf Systems is working on DX10 for XP. He even has a few working examples but dont expect support for everything! 100 pounds is a lot of money to spend almost one third of what a 'good' PC costs these days. Your buying at the wrong time, during the DX10 revolution it wont be long before all the games developers jump on the DX10 band waggon and DX 9 is no more and we are all forced to make the upgrade to Shista. I would suggest you try to be patient or find a card thats less expensive. BUT back onto your orginal question regarding Medal of Honor Airborne unless you have a Core 2 Duo I wouldnt waste your time with the GC upgrade. I realise the official spec says you can play that game with a P4 2.8 GHz, I wouldnt believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 actually i dont think the Processor is a problem as its a AMD 64Bit 4000 so that should be able to handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Does that processor have a core speed of 2.4 Ghz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 DX 10 for vista only? Not strictly true. Cody Brociuous over at Falling Leaf Systems is working on DX10 for XP. He even has a few working examples but dont expect support for everything! 100 pounds is a lot of money to spend almost one third of what a 'good' PC costs these days. Your buying at the wrong time, during the DX10 revolution it wont be long before all the games developers jump on the DX10 band waggon and DX 9 is no more and we are all forced to make the upgrade to Shista. This is off topic, but I had to reply. ;D DX10 hacks for XP are indeed in the making, but as long as Microsoft itself will not cooperate, all hacks will have doubtfull quality and stability. You could compare it to wine on linux, I wouldn't recommend playing modern windows pc games on linux via wine, unless you really like spending a week or so getting it to work... barely ... There will either be no 'real' support for this from the developer (meaning you'll have to spend ages searching through forums and finding things out for yourself), or they'll ask money for it, in which case you would just as well buy Vista and use that for games only, which is surely what most people would do. As for DX9 no longer being used in new pc games, I wouldn't count on it. Any developer bold enough to do that, will seriously lose money over it. Vista market penetration is only 10%, XP has about 80% of the pc market. There simply isn't enough of a userbase to make games dx10 only. What's more xbox360 games are more closely related to dx9 than to dx10, so games that are multiplatform are actually easier to make in dx9 than dx10 only. DX9 gaming is long from dead, it will be at least another 2 years before developers stop incorporating dx9 paths in their games. By that time, it will surely be time to buy another computer, since system requirements will have gone up... Oh, and by that time it won't be dx10, but it'll be either dx10.1 or 10.2 (one is near completion, the other is in development). I would most certainly agree however, if you can wait 2-3 months and be willing to spend not £100 but more something like £140 (guestimate), you buy one of those new cards I mentioned above, they will have significantly better performance (but as they will be brand spanking new, they'll also be more expensive). If you want a 'good' gaming pc btw, $600 won't cut it (for me). You'll be looking at prices over $1000 for a decent new gaming rig, if you're into high quality screens, the price will probably go up over $1500. Good quality computer gaming is very expensive, every 2 years or so, you'll need to invest $1000-1500 for a new pc. If you're content with 'medium quality' pc gaming, price would go down to $700-1000 every two years (continuous upgrading aside, since it's harder to have an overview of spendings). Everything below that goes into the 'casual' gaming category (the one my GF would be classified under ;P) In that respect console gaming is a lot cheaper btw, too bad for me I truely hate console controllers/gameplay... :( so far for my plunge into off-topic-ness. :D ed.: an athlon64 4000+ does indeed have 2.4GHz corespeed and 1MB lvl2 cache, only one core though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 As for DX9 no longer being used in new pc games, I wouldn't count on it. Like it or not XP OEM's will soon no longer available with new machines. This is a confirmed fact. Nice way of pushing DX 10 onto us :-) Funny you should mention the X-Box 360..............currenly Games for Windows Live is only supported by Vista. MS 'say' they will release a XP version later this year. DX 10 offers significant graphical improvements on games like Hellgate, Lost Planet, Bioshock, COH blah blah blah. Still only a handful of games I admit but if you are a hardcore gamer and want the best rig, DX 10 is where its at even now. There may not be many incentives right now for Vista and DX 10 upgrades but lets see what SP1 brings. I`m afraid I`m one of those poeple that when it comes to spending one hundred pounds I would rather put that money into a long term investment rather than a short term. Buying twice is never a very attractive thought to have in your mind when your shelling out your hard earned cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 You're right, more eyecandy can be seen in dx10, but looking at most games performance hit they take when enabling that eyecandy in dx10 mode, compared to dx9 high quality mode of the same game, the performance impact is MUCH larger than the quality improvement. Anyway, it is certainly true that sooner or later, we'll have to upgrade our xp's to a new windows version, if we want to keep up with pc gaming, I just meant that this time has not yet come and nor will it come during the next year or so. What isn't true however, is oem's stopping to deliver xp, well, at least not for the first coming year. In fact, Microsoft along with the OEM's just started a program to allow people who have bought Vista Business to downgrade to XP Professional easily, quickly and painless, simply because the demand for XP is still there and 'big' players will have no go at Vista! I can confirm that all schools in my area are still using XP Professional (and are even downgrading new machines that came default with Vista to XP), also all businesses who cooperate with these schools are also using XP only (in the microsoft arena), all other business I've come in contact with also still prefer buying XP over Vista (sometimes they don't have a choice, when they aren't big enough, though, with this latest plan from Microsoft, I'm pretty sure, even they too will want to stick with XP). When XP SP3 is released, the 'need' to 'upgrade' to Vista will get even lower as SP3 will feature some nice professional enhancements over SP2. XP will remain the main business platform for quite a few more years to come, I can pretty much guarantee it. The only place where Vista can break through, is in the homes of people as Vista Home Premium, all other versions are pretty much dead. Maybe some hardcore 'fans' and gamers will buy Ultimate, but that's just a handfull and they've been seriously complaining about it, that they didn't get what was promised to them (ultimate extra's... what's that microsoft says now, well... not really, but they'd like to). From verything I hear, see and read, I can guarantee, Vista will NEVER be as big as XP was/is (not in the same timescale at least) and with some bad luck, it may even turn out to be the next windows millenium (well not quite that bad), a lot of businesses are waiting for the next windows version and are not even interested in the upgrades SP1 will bring (the beta was released some time ago and nothing spectacular was in it, as one developer put it after testing, compared to the XP launch schedule, this SP1 will bring Vista to the same reliability level as XP without SP's), as XP suits their needs just fine and they don't want to spend millions for new licences and training of employees and IT staff and new programs (as quite a few business programs (accouting mostly) turn out to not run 'well' under Vista). To put it short, the benefit is not worth the added effort. But home user who get stuck with Vista Home Premium, well... they are stuck with it indeed, no way of downgrading, though, they could upgrade to Business (I think) and then downgrade to XP Professional, but I think the added affort for getting to this point and the loss of the desktop eyecandy and DX10 support and mediacenter capabilities will make sure nobody would do that. Home Premium is Microsofts strong card, and if they play it right with the OEM's, this could make Vista successfull eventually and with it also DX10, though obviously, DX10 is the way developers will go anyway, with or without a Successfull Vista, as they want to build the coolest game around and DX10 definately helps in this endeavour, but they won't cut dx9 so quickly (remember that for example half-life 2 even still has a dx7 render path!, just so they could reach a larger crowd, as such I'm pretty sure dx9.0c paths will remain included and depending on dx- development, may even survive untill a dx11 is released, though that would be pushing it, dx9.0b however, will be doomed and cards who only support this will have no value at all, ex. x800 series ;P). edit: oh man, I talk/write too much, if it looks too long, just skip it, nothing really important was in it anyway. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyran Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 forgot what i was gonna say :(((((((((((((((((( oh yea Since when have developers ever considered thye consumers? they will always use the latest dx cos thats what will give them the best and newest features and suckers like us will always want the best games oh no not another upgrade :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 What is true is that OEM's for XP will no longer be on sale after Jan 2008. Sorry but your wrong about that. I would suggest you pick up a copy of a November edition of a PC rag. For those of you who are in the UK, page 103 of CustomPC. As for Vista never being as big as XP, I remember when people in the industry were saying that about XP when everyone was on W2K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Weeeheyy...downloaded the Call of duty 4 demo, and its flaming works...even on low settings the graphics are mint!! I am just suprised it ran ok!! I did also find out the min specs as well. “Recommended Specs” CPU: 2.4 GHz dual core or better is recommended RAM: 1GB for XP; 2GB for Vista is recommended Harddrive: 8GB of free hard drive space Video card: 3.0 Shader Support recommended. Nvidia Geforce 7800 or better or ATI Radeon X1800 or better “Required (min) Specs” CPU: Intel® Pentium® 4 2.4 GHz or AMD® Athlon 64 2800+ processor or any 1.8Ghz Dual Core Processor or better supported RAM: 512MB RAM (768MB for Windows Vista) Harddrive: 8GB of free hard drive space Video card (generic): NVIDIA® Geforce 6600 or better or ATI® Radeon® 9800Pro or better [br]Posted on: October 19, 2007, 06:38:19 AMThis game makes counter strike look pants!! trust me download it and see!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 kyran`: I'm sorry, but you're missing the point... Of course developers will use dx10, that does not mean they won't use dx9.0c! ;) Chiggy: directly from the source: Due to the longevity and success of Windows XP Professional' date=' it has become necessary to produce more product keys for system builders in order to support [b']the continued availability of Windows XP Professional through the scheduled system builder channel end-of-life (EOL) date of January 31, 2009[/b]. If you need a source link: http://oem.microsoft.com/script/sites/public/winxp_sp2c.htm (I hardly ever talk crap when it's about 'business', ;P ) -- Ulysses: really? on low quality it looks good? from the screenshots I got to see, it didn't look al that good. What counter strike are we talking? source or original? then again, even css is beginning to look aged compared to recent games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 kyran`: I'm sorry, but you're missing the point... Of course developers will use dx10, that does not mean they won't use dx9.0c! ;) Chiggy: directly from the source: Due to the longevity and success of Windows XP Professional' date=' it has become necessary to produce more product keys for system builders in order to support [b']the continued availability of Windows XP Professional through the scheduled system builder channel end-of-life (EOL) date of January 31, 2009[/b]. If you need a source link: http://oem.microsoft.com/script/sites/public/winxp_sp2c.htm (I hardly ever talk crap when it's about 'business', ;P ) -- Ulysses: really? on low quality it looks good? from the screenshots I got to see, it didn't look al that good. What counter strike are we talking? source or original? then again, even css is beginning to look aged compared to recent games. I think you have to download it and play it to see really, the game detects the best settings for your system but I did notice that alot of the shading had been turned off, I only breifly played it this morning before going to work and the impression I got of the game was very good. If you dont want to download it have a look at it on utube (not the Xbox 360 version). Yeap I was refering to what its like compared with Counter Strike Source. Our clan is going to be renting a second server as soon as it comes out so if you guys buy it your welcome to pop on. One other thing I did notice on the specs is the extra Ram you need to run it on Vista! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 One other thing I did notice on the specs is the extra Ram you need to run it on Vista! Indeed, when using Vista, add an exta gig of RAM to the required/recommended specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Here is the MS Life Cycle page with OEM's. The date has been extended to July 2008. Please believe me TetsuoShima! http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 Was reading a interesting article today in pc format, looks like buying a card that supports DX10 is pretty pointless as Microsoft are already working on DX10.b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Here is the MS Life Cycle page with OEM's. The date has been extended to July 2008. Please believe me TetsuoShima! http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx That page makes the same EOL even later for retail and the same as the one I pointed to (I'd have expected them having the same dates, lol, ms's one hand doesn't seem to know what its other is doing :D (or they're really bad at synchronising changes)). EOL = January 31, 2009 Just so you know, MS definition of a system builder, is someone, who builds a complete finished system with windows preinstalled (those are my non-exact words, but that is what it comes down to), I think this is where 'our communication problem' originates. In MS's own words: "“System builder” means an original equipment manufacturer, an assembler, refurbisher, or pre-installer of software on computer systems." (emphasis added by myself) In the end, this means you'll be able to buy a new XP licence 'till the end of the system builder EOL (via your usual computer store, at least, via my usual computer store, I've allready verified this, they are registed as system builder with both the MS official distribution partners for my country), it also means MS will not provide assistance to you in case something goes wrong, but I've never used their assistance anyway... If you wish to read through the system builder licence, in case you don't believe me: http://oem.microsoft.com/downloads/Public/sblicense/2007_SB_Licenses/FY07_SB_License_English.pdf I do think this will solve our difference in this matter, since it's all the evidence I have to offer. :D Was reading a interesting article today in pc format, looks like buying a card that supports DX10 is pretty pointless as Microsoft are already working on DX10.b That is correct, the next version will be called dx10.1 though. The new cards I spoke off earlier, will be released end of november and will probably be readily available in retail by the beginning of december. The new ATI cards will support dx10.1, it is still unclear if the new nVidia card will support it. MS is also allready well underway with the successor of dx10.1, but I've no idea what they'll call it, I heard it would be dx10.2, but it could be dx10b I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Just got to see the first 8800gt cards and their performance is, excellent. Almost as fast as the 8800gtx at half the cost. Not sure yet what dx version they support (dx10 or 10.1), but performance is very good. Can't wait to see the first ati samples of their competing product. Intro prices of the 8800gt are about $250, but if you wait 1 or 2 months, you can probably get one for $200, as they're bound to become popular and a mass production card. Really, if you say you cannot afford $200 for a graphics card alone, think about it, a $100 card will get you a 6 performance card, a $200 will get you a 18 performance card, on a linear scale, 20 being the fastest currently available. This card is best bang for buck for sure. Now, all we gotta do, is wait for ATI to show their marbles. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 In regards XP I was refering to the sale of OEM's, system builders dont use anything else. 8800 series is as follows: 8800GTS 320MB 8800GTS 640MB 8800 GTX 8800 Ultra It is worth mentioning that there are two 8800GT cards. The 320MB and the 640MB. Currently there is a 50 pounds price difference between the two. The 640MB will cost you around 240 pounds which is way out of your budget. If you system belonged to me to be honest I wouldnt want to upgrade to one of the above cards as only max potential will be achieved with a far quicker hardware. Your Mobo, CPU, RAM, HD are all going to produce bottlenecks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Chiggy, bro, your information is seriously outdated. :P RLY! The 8800GT is a new card, it is a refresh product of the 8800 series, on a new node (65nm). I have just had confirmation that the 8800gt will NOT support dx10.1, so you're stuck with dx10 with this card, still extremely good bang for buck. Anxiously waiting for the HD3800 now (formerly known as HD2950, AMD decided they'd rename it before launch). As for OEM, if you play your cards right, OEM IS a system builder. :) But that discussion has been going on long enough, if you read what I posted, including links, you'll see, my dates are the correct ones, if you wish to not 'see' that, so be it... :P EDIT: some more info on the 8800gt, as I see I didn't mention specs: 112 stream processors 256-bit bus 512MB memory 600MHz core clock, 1500MHz stream proc clock 900MHz mem clock (or 1800DDR MHz, if you prefer) All these charactersitics make it about equally fast as the 8800gtx on resolutions up to 1600*1200, above that the gtx's increased memory bandwidth makes it win easily, remember that it will only cost $250 on introduction, making it the best bang for buck card in a long time. Price is still above budget, but it's definately worth it, I'd wait a while longer still though, to see what AMD's candidate will come up with (plus a longer wait equals a lower price :D ), also 256MB parts are expected to appear start of december at prices of less than $180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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