US Militarism/Imperialism vs US = defenders of all that is just & good

[Antipodean]

If we don't remember our history and acknowledge our wrongs, we are doomed to repeat them again.

 

And WHY is it like the twilight zone for somebody to question the conduct of the US in it's military incursions since WW2?

 

I'm Australian btw - and we've quite happily & loyally joined you in half of those conflicts... so its quite reasonable of me to ask the questions I am.

 

And if you speak to the good citizens of vietnam, you might find that they find their war dead are considered a loss a great deal more significant than spilt milk.

 

The reason I mentioned Vietnam in the first place was as a part of a list of aggreived nations who have been at the blunt end of US military intervention.

 

The way I put it -I think- was in terms of how many countries the US had successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2...

 

Perhaps a better way to put would be in terms of how many countries which the US has launched military interventions in since WW2 ended up hating America by the conclusion of that war. Vietnam, Panama, Iraq, and Afghanistan at the very least would be on such a list.

 

A question for you unquestioning patriots to contemplate:

 

Immediately after 9/11, The US had the full compassion and support of almost the entire world. Even in Iran, an Islamic fundamentalist state, ONE MILLION PEOPLE came out into the streets of Tehran in support of the United States.

 

Now, some 5 years later, the international reputation of and respect for has never been lower.

 

So - the big question??? WHAT HAPPENED? Think about it.

 

 

[theaveng]

My favourite movie is american. My favourite poet is american. My second favourite novelist is american. Some of my favourite ideas -such as the separation of powers principle' date=' and the separation of church & state- these are also american.[/quote']

 

Great!

 

Then maybe you should stick to FACTS and not innuedo? After all, the French sold the USA Mirage jets which we used to bomb Iraq. Do you claim the French are guilty of killing Iraqis???

 

Of course not. Neither is Ford guilty if I run over & kill my wife with my Explorer. The manufacturer is not responsible for the mis-use of the Owner.

 

 

 

[MrDad]

If we don't remember our history and acknowledge our wrongs, we are doomed to repeat them again.

 

And WHY is it like the twilight zone for somebody to question the conduct of the US in it's military incursions since WW2?

 

I'm Australian btw - and we've quite happily & loyally joined you in half of those conflicts... so its quite reasonable of me to ask the questions I am.

 

And if you speak to the good citizens of vietnam, you might find that they find their war dead are considered a loss a great deal more significant than spilt milk.

 

The reason I mentioned Vietnam in the first place was as a part of a list of aggreived nations who have been at the blunt end of US military intervention.

 

The way I put it -I think- was in terms of how many countries the US had successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2...

 

Perhaps a better way to put would be in terms of how many countries which the US has launched military interventions in since WW2 ended up hating America by the conclusion of that war. Vietnam, Panama, Iraq, and Afghanistan at the very least would be on such a list.

 

A question for you unquestioning patriots to contemplate:

 

Immediately after 9/11, The US had the full compassion and support of almost the entire world. Even in Iran, an Islamic fundamentalist state, ONE MILLION PEOPLE came out into the streets of Tehran in support of the United States.

 

Now, some 5 years later, the international reputation of and respect for has never been lower.

 

So - the big question??? WHAT HAPPENED? Think about it.

 

I know that US-Viet Nam relations are going well, with surprisingly little rancor and animosity between the two sides. I couldn't find much in they way of scientific surveys or statistics on the attitudes of Afghans and Panamanians as a whole toward the US, so I can't venture on their level of US hatred. As far as Iraq, I don't believe a majority hate the US currently but it is obvious we are not winning hearts and minds and that could change.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3514504.stm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

If you are looking for a defense of US policy in Iraq, you'll need to rely on someone else.

 

[Antipodean]

Yes - 20 years later, the Vietnamese have forgiven you and really want to do business... anyhow, this still doesn't address the issues I'm trying to get you to think about. I guess what I'm trying to get you to consider is the possibility that, if at the conclusion of the various military interventions the US involvles itself in, the locals of that nation tend to hate America, then there might something wrong with the way the US government pursues foreign policy objectives through war...

 

What I'm trying to get people to consider here is that there is a difference between the rhetoric of liberty used by US politicians to justify war and the real, more financial and business orientated motivations for those same wars.

 

I cited President Eisenhower's Military-Industrial complex speech for a reason, more than a few comments back in this thread. I fear that what he warned of has come to pass. If George Bush was so concerned about the liberty of foreign people (which I believe has become the comtemporary excuse for the Iraq War, once the WMD thing panned out) then why do NOTHING about the genocide taking place RIGHT NOW in Darfur, Sudan. I mean this is GENOCIDE, as in an entire people, an entire culture may be wiped from the face of the earth AND WE DID NOTHING. None of our nations has, and few of our citizens has even cared.

 

Those comiting that dreadful crime against humanity are using weapons sold to them by the British not 5 years ago by the way.

 

 

Anyhow, getting back to topic, I'm not not trying to make a particular point about each and every US conflict. I'm trying to get people to see if they can't identify a bigger pattern. Every single US president seems to find something, somewhere in the world that serves as an excuse for military intervention. No other country in the world has that record. There are two possible explanations for this -

 

1) US politicians are upright men who genuinely believe the US should be expending billions of dollars and giving the lives of its sons and daughters in overseas military campaigns to defend life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness world wide.

 

 

2) Someone's making money out of it.

 

 

 

Now PLEASE, all I'm asking is that some of you here apply Occam's Razor and and at least acknowledge the possibility of the latter.

 

 

 

 

As an aside, I wonder how many of my detractors here "got" Starship Troopers.

[GhostShadow]

I'm Australian btw - and we've quite happily & loyally joined you in half of those conflicts... so its quite reasonable of me to ask the questions I am.

 

No, your goverment has join us, it is aparent and obvious that YOU do not. You slanderize American Intention and then try to appease the American population on this site so you dont get burned, thats bad Karma.

 

You did not ask a question, you posted a picture of a village being burned, ASSUMED that Americans did it DIRECTLY.. (and even if you didnt assume, you didnt try very hard to explain the picture about how it wasnt Americans but in fact Vietnamese who commited the act.) Either way that is proof of American hatred or that you are biase aginst USA.

 

The way I put it -I think- was in terms of how many countries the US had successfully "liberated" or defended since WW2...

 

Perhaps a better way to put would be in terms of how many countries which the US has launched military interventions in since WW2 ended up hating America by the conclusion of that war. Vietnam, Panama, Iraq, and Afghanistan at the very least would be on such a list.

 

No, maybe now you want to word the question that way b/c you realized that America has liberated countries and has done much good, but you are still slanted that America is Evil and that you feel the need to magnify the military matters of the USA.

 

 

Immediately after 9/11, The US had the full compassion and support of almost the entire world. Even in Iran, an Islamic fundamentalist state, ONE MILLION PEOPLE came out into the streets of Tehran in support of the United States.

 

Now, some 5 years later, the international reputation of and respect for has never been lower.

 

So - the big question??? WHAT HAPPENED? Think about it.

 

If you look at why America left Europe you will have the answer. When America is attacked we dont roll over, in fact we have shown that our reaction is so powerful, ppl are scared. It appears that Europoean Governments are willing to accpet and tolerate dictators and evil, even when they are attacked. The answer (in case I have been to cyriptic) is that America actualy has an attention span longer than 5 min.

 

I will leave you with this- "Its easy to be a pacifist when you hide behind the guns of the navy"

[TetsuoShima]

Well, I think most of us will agree that if their is no money or political pressure (either internal or external via other influential countries) involved, generally no military battles would be fought by 'western' nations.

 

Of course political pressure is open to debate.... For example Kosovo and surroundings, Afghanistan, etc. I'd say these go under political pressure, but others may not agree. Mind you I'm not saying that those campaigns were not necessary. In all of history, battles have allways been fought for gain, whatever that gain would be. No nation fights battles for nothing, never.

 

To seriously help a nation somewhere half accross the world without expecting anything in return, not a chance! It has been tried and it never took long before it ultimately failed, simply because the incentive was not strong enough.

 

But then again, it all depends on points-of-view of course.... :)

[Antipodean]

You did not ask a question

 

Read the name of the topic: "US Militarism/Imperialism vs US = defenders of all that is just & good - Discuss" - That is the question I raised. The Vietnam was just one case in

 

Also the fact that I take issue with the conduct of the US government on some conflicts is NOT in fact "proof of American hatred" or "biase aginst USA". Please stop trying to write off my arguements as simply anti-american. I've addressed this already. It is a shallow and pathetic way to try and dismiss a set of ideas. I do NOT think that America or any other nation for that matter is inherantly "evil".

 

Further - please explain how on earth your claim that "America left Europe" (I have no idea what you mean by this) has resulted in the international reputation of the US government being lower than ever before. It could just be me, but I really can't make sense of that assertion.

 

I understand a nation's right to fully defend itself in the wake of an attack on the scale of 9/11... but this still doesn't explain the Iraq war. It has been definitavely demonstrated that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

 

I take it that your assertion that "Europoean Governments are willing to accpet and tolerate dictators and evil" carries with it the corrolloray that the US does not.

 

If so, why was Saddam armed by the US in the first place. Why is the US not on good terms with Ghaddafi (the Libyan dictator), and on good terms with Pervez Musharraf ( the Pakistani dictator), and on good terms with the United Arab Emirates (an extremely oppressive regime oil baron Monarchies)???

 

And as for your statement that

"Its easy to be a pacifist when you hide behind the guns of the navy"

 

 

I never said that I was a Pacifist. Please don't make assumptions. I just don't don't believe in blind faith in any particular government, and that wars should only be entered into very carefully and only on sound grounds. Economic self interest is NOT one of those grounds. That is where imperialism begins.

[GhostShadow]

Please stop trying to write off my arguements as simply anti-american.

 

yes sir, you are right, I will stop if you stop brushing my comments off as being words of a "bush Bot" or blind nationalism, or me being brianwashed, or me not being smart enough to form my own opinons b/c I am an American.

 

That goes for every one, look back in the threads, you willl see what I mean.

 

But before i say things that are...unkind- I will say "lets agree to Disagree"

 

I an American will take the first step back from this fight... if not to just prove that we are not all about conflicts.

 

I never said that I was a Pacifist.

 

I never said you where... plz dont make assumtions

[Antipodean]

yes sir, you are right, I will stop if you stop brushing my comments off as being words of a "bush Bot" or blind nationalism, or me being brianwashed, or me not being smart enough to form my own opinons b/c I am an American.

 

That goes for every one, look back in the threads, you willl see what I mean.

 

 

With the looking back in the threads - I have NEVER brushed off ANYBODY's comments by casting insults, labels or dispersions as to themselves or their character. I have never called you a bush bot etc...

 

 

But you're right... it's time to step back from this arguement. We'll never see eye to eye.

 

I'd only add that all I was looking for was for others to acknowledge the possibility that the US doesn't always enter into war for honourable reasons. Some of you yanks seem damned touchy about that... why? To me, it seems damn contrary to the best interests of good democracy not to question ones leaders and their record.

[Guest c4evap]

The mods can get off their butts & start temporarily suspending the people who made these comments:

 

"I just can't believe you americans were dumb enough to give the bloke more than 1 term. What is wrong with you people?"

 

"U.S.A = Union of Stupid Assholes."

 

"Just look at their president, and the people who voted for him, they are good examples. :-)"

 

"omg how naive these yanks can be.. in case u haven't heard: the World hates USA for being a global bully that ignores the global disapproval for it's imperialistic wars. It won't be long now till China/UN/EU will tell when USA should jump and when not.. and USA will jump."

 

"No wonder the world hates America."

 

 

And so you see what I'm getting at. I've noted that there seems to be a general loathing of the United States and it's "stupid voters", and this comes out in people's posts whether they mean it to or not. It needs to STOP.

 

 

I've been away for a few days but I see that you all have been busy little beavers chopping each other apart. Nice work.

 

STOP IT RIGHT NOW!

 

That goes for both sides!

 

C'mon guys...do I have to send you all to bed without supper?!?

 

Now everybody take a deep breath...

 

c4 B)

[Antipodean]

c4evap: With respect mate - I don't believe any of those quotes came from this thread. While obviously there's been zero to none agreement here... and some EXTREMELY heated and often terse discussion I reckon all parties in this thread are to be commended for keeping it respectful.

 

Personally I hold no animosity whatsoever for GhostShadow, MrDad, theaveng or anybody else that's held my opinions to question.

 

Anyhow... I don't know what they think but I suspect that this thread has accomplished all that it could have. We all know where we each stand.

 

Have a good one the lot of yez ;)

 

 

[Guest c4evap]

SNIPPET:

 

c4evap: With respect mate - I don't believe any of those quotes came from this thread.

 

Right from this thread. I was quoting theaveng. Those are his words. Maybe he "borrowed" them from other threads. I can't address that. He seemed pretty upset. I simply asked everyone to chill.

 

c4 B)

[Hilander72]

I'd only add that all I was looking for was for others to acknowledge the possibility that the US doesn't always enter into war for honourable reasons. Some of you yanks seem damned touchy about that... why? To me' date=' it seems damn contrary to the best interests of good democracy not to question ones leaders and their record.[/quote']

 

To question the facts is the first step in understanding the truth.

 

I'm not American, so therefore I acknowledge. :)

 

 

Honor does not have to be defended. :p

[Antipodean]

I simply asked everyone to chill.

 

 

Fair call. B)

[yudd]

who ever hates the US should just keep an eye out for the the next REAL GLOBAL CONFICT Sino - US war. That will be devastating.

[NuffSaid]

Wow I thought all us sci-fi fans were suppose to be tolerant of others lol.. Anti-American sentiment is rampent around the world today, lets not fuel it on a board that supports star trek! If you wish to blame people for killing ton's of people, and fracking up the worlds just blame the "White man" They are the one's in power in the wester world. They are the ones who enslaved people. They are the one's running trillion dollar companies. They screwed the middle east, africa, tired in asia. If that is not enough they are killing the environment by not taking globle warming seriously ( put a small dent in the pocketbook) So let us not push the blame on to the small shoulders of America, put it on the massize shoulders of the greedy "whiteman"

 

p.s sadly I am a "whiteman"

 

[Palantas]

It seems the point of this thread revolves around the fact that US politicians pose their agendas in a positive, morally righteous light, when their true aims may be more self-serving. Is the United States somehow unique in this? Countries pursue policies that they believe help themselves.

 

If individuals in Europe or elsewhere in the world truly despise the United States and its foreign policy, then I suggest that they support leaders in their own countries who advocate political, economic, or military opposition to these policies. If you speak of stupid US voters who empowered President Bush, then consider your own voters and leaders who are too impotent to stop him.

[kyran]

right on palantas we was stupid enough to give tony blair a THIRD term darn it

i'm not anti american i'm just against a very very few american decisions like giving a part of a country to someone else (americas big why didn't they give the jews a bit of america )

i'm not anti jew either just like to see fair play why not give iran a nuclear bomb save them making their own, with a ten second timer :)

AND the isrealies have nuclear bombs so is it any wonder some of the arab states want them?

maybe isreal is gonna move in on them next