Guest c4evap Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Oh, I agree. They tried to make her everything really. Strong, compassionate, sexy, independent, needy, caffeine hungry, hard talking, sensible, insane, sane... devoted to her crew (at the cost of others), devoted to others (at the cost of her crews)... I'd have liked her more if she hadn't been written so inconsistently. With Sisko and Picard and Kirk... there was a feeling of a character. With Janeway (and to an extent, Archer) it was more - let's roll the dice... Oh! It's save the aliens Janeway this week! Oh and forget all that character development from last week! The difference between Sisko and Picard and Kirk vs Janeway is their circumstances. They weren't "too far" (relatively speaking) from home as Voyager was. That could account for her inconsistency you mentioned. The worry about getting home, fighting alien races, finding supplies, etc. Would make me nuts for sure (no cracks please). After all, captain or not, she was a human being. Subject to all the imperfections we all are. Made her more human IMHO. EDIT: But all in all...yes. The writing could of/should of been better! No arguement there... c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 I think that's partly the fault of the writers trying to make a strong female character without totally taking away the point of her being a female in the first place' date=' and failing miserably. I think it might be because they must not really know very much about women, or at least, how to write women...[/quote']Wasn't one of the "main" writers for Voyager a woman? Jeri Taylor? Hmm, didn't know that. There goes THAT theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebellion Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Voyager p4wnz 'nuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subspatial Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 ...... Seven was a treat to look at' date=' but I always, always loved Kes more. Hell, I even made a website about her clothes and wrote fan fiction about her. Wow, finally someone who is more obsessed with Kes than I am :) hey C4: Ya know I've never heard anyone say they didn't like Janeway because she was a woman... ...only that she was an idiot etc.. :) In fact i can't remember anyone ever saying they 'liked' her because she was a woman........ ;) But my last word would be: If ya think voyager (or other) was the worst StarTrek, Then you have obviously never seen "Star Trek: Hidden Frontier " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 hey C4: Ya know I've never heard anyone say they didn't like Janeway because she was a woman... ...only that she was an idiot etc.. :) In fact i can't remember anyone ever saying they 'liked' her because she was a woman........ ;) Well, you missed it then cause she has been called a cum-bucket (on more than one occasion) amongst other things. Doesn't show too much respect for women I'd say. c4 :thinking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subspatial Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 ooo.. thats pretty disgusting then.... But i've heard Patrick Stewart being to refered to in a similar manner... (generally admirers of his sexualness though wishing to be with him) Actually, I do remember a few post's saying Janeway is sexy... (never quite figured that one myself, the episode('s) when people are attracted to her always made me squirmish :) I tell ya what though C4: That avatar of yours does make me wish that 'Superman Returns' was infact "Superwoman Comes..." I could sit through a movie or two with her in it (nod nod, wink wink) ;) (no sexist degredation intended) You never said you had one of those outfits :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenofNine Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I still believe most VOY nay-sayers are just peeved that it had a female captain. I feel you make entirely too much of that particular non-issue. I disagree. I don't know how much you were online in 1995-1996, when Voyager first came out. We had just gone online, and, of course, some of the first online communities were STrek related. Virtually every site I went to that had info on Voyager slagged the captain. I'm talking fan sites for STrek, BBS, mailing lists, usenet, everywhere. Very few people were interested in the show, even before it aired. Don't underestimate the effect this particular controversy caused. There was a huge online uproar when Mulgrew replaced Bujold, not just because the new show seemed cursed, but where everyone claimed a female ACTRESS couldn't handle the job, a meta-issue over and above the femininity of the character. From Wikipedia: The central character of Captain Kathryn Janeway brought praise and criticism. Although female captains had been featured as guest characters in each of the previous Star Trek series, as well as in several theatrical movies, Janeway was the first female character to star in a Star Trek series in the role of captain. Some women who watched the show claim Captain Janeway as a role model, and many male viewers also admired her. But while Kate Mulgrew's acting on the show was often regarded as superb, some (including short term writer Ronald D. Moore) criticized what they saw as the inconsistent command style of Captain Janeway and Mulgrew's rather regal manner was not universally admired. (It is notable that Janeway preferred to be called "Ma'am," although Starfleet captains are generally called "sir" regardless of their gender.) While a female captain was a logical progression for the Trek franchise and women had been the lead characters on many other TV series, the introduction of Janeway was highly publicized and some quarters of fandom were openly sexist in their response, resenting the show's strong female characters and what they saw as an emphasis on "feminine" values like cooperation over more aggressive, action-oriented storylines. Note the sexist commentary. I remember all of this very well. I'd always thought that Commander Shelby, from the TNG episode "The Best of Both Worlds" would have made a superb Captain, and that Paramount missed a great oportunity by ignoring her. The female Captain thing harangued Voyager for years during it's run, don't underestimate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 Well screw them, then. Real Star Trek fans could never be sexist. It just goes against everything Trek is supposed to stand for. Sans ENT and Voyager... those shows actually promoted sexism IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Ents always promote sexism... after all, they call all the women 'entwives', right? ;) Yeah... well, after dropping to using sex appeal to gather viewers in the middle of Voyager, Star Trek was never the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 StevenofNine...thank you. Well screw them' date=' then. Real Star Trek fans could never be sexist. It just goes against everything Trek is supposed to stand for. Sans ENT and Voyager... those shows actually promoted sexism IMO[/quote'] Yeah, they did. DS9 had it's share of tight uniforms as well. Tos sometimes featured "something nice for Kirk to slip into". ;) I think TNG (in that manner) was pretty bland (although Riker could get quite "worked up"). Yeah... well' date=' after dropping to using sex appeal to gather viewers in the middle of Voyager, Star Trek was never the same...[/quote'] When the ratings begin to slump...the networks usually cater to a 14 year old's libido! Been that way for a long, long time. I tell ya what though C4: That avatar of yours does make me wish that 'Superman Returns' was infact "Superwoman Comes..." I could sit through a movie or two with her in it (nod nod, wink wink) ;) (no sexist degredation intended) You never said you had one of those outfits :) LOL. Funny you should say that. I did have one but gave it away. I now have a uniform like the one Uhura wore in TOS. My BF loves me in it ;) c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 Sex sells........and if Star Trek was capitalising on that then its no different from any other film or television production. I do take your point about good script writing.......good writing is so hard to achieve in regards to making scripts have a universal appeal to the hardcore fan and the person who is just watching random television.....however sex has universal appeal and its something we all understand. Lets not forget the fan base..........now I know some of you lovely lads and ladies are married or are in long term relationships but on the most part there are a lot of sex starved geeks out there.........if it takes a lovely figure to persuade them to stop playing Everquest or stop counting the number of stormtroopers on Endor..........then thats what it takes! 7 I must admit peaked ( sorry for that pun ) my own interest but she also brought with her the Borg and there isnt a Star Trek fan who complained about the Borg scripts ( but no doubt someone will find something to moan about *sigh* ). I am male and no one is putting me down about my sexuality.............so if I watched an episode for 7 then whats the crime? The crime of being male? Lighten up please because you can still have a clear conscience, go to church and look at women on TV lmao! Janeway is a female version of Picard.....well at least in my opinion......I think Kate Mulgrew did a great job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 Janeway and Picard had totally different styles of command - Picard was a delegator, Janeway was a swiss army knife. Sex does sell and I think that Trek has used it but... when it came to VOY and ENT, it was prevalent to the point where it was endemic. VOY and ENT both had women in catsuits... for no real reason beyond titillation. Shelby as a Captain would have been pretty cool. She was an interesting character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 Picard always seamed to be a very private man only friendly with senior staff whilst Janeway was more of a team player with all members of the crew............would Picard of changed his method of command having been put in Janeways position? Is this why Janeway is an Admiral.............everyone likes a team player? Perhaps I didnt put my point across correctly...........I was speaking in regard to the actors not the characters. I can see why producers employed Kate as she is as refined person in real life a lot like Patrick Stewart and has that same regal style about her. A commanding presence on screen? It is a well known fact that the uniforms in the first series of TNG were designed to titillate, to encourage people to watch......so Voyager and Enterprise are not the only guilty parties. Having said Trek isnt one big sex romp is it? All those critics and women *ahem* who made comments regarding 7 and those uniforms are total hypocrites because on the other hand they are praising shows like Sex in the City, which I personaly think is total drongo sex drivel. To conclude........ sex is a big party of our lives......why do you think Sir Alan Sugar employed the skinny blonde youngster rather then the miss piggy look a like.......was it on business ability?.......ha ha dream on. As long as Sc-Fi is around they will be sexy women.........as well as men. If people want to escape their lives into Sc-Fi do they want to be looking at actors with faces like the reflection of a chimp in the back of a spoon? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megalith Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 troy used to look very hot i think it is strange you ppl dont think tng had a sexist(if thats how you want to see it) agenda my best mate has always had a crush on beverly crusher(excuse the pun) which i could never understand, he has a thing for redheads however. But as far as bad stories go i will say tng had many that sucked especially the later ones with Q in imo. voyager had some great stories i really enjoyed. the entire franchise in order of enjoyment in my oppinion is:- DS9 9 TOS 8 TNG 6 VOY 5 Ent 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Janeway was a swiss army knife. LOL. Picard always seamed to be a very private man only friendly with senior staff whilst Janeway was more of a team player with all members of the crew............ So true. Sex does sell and I think that Trek has used it but... when it came to VOY and ENT' date=' it was prevalent to the point where it was endemic. VOY and ENT both had women in catsuits... for no real reason beyond titillation. [/quote'] I agree...and let me say this - as a woman, it didn't bother me at all. Natural order of things and all that. It's a tried and true method to garner ratings. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Sex does sell and I think that Trek has used it but... when it came to VOY and ENT' date=' it was prevalent to the point where it was endemic. VOY and ENT both had women in catsuits... for no real reason beyond titillation. [/quote'] I agree...and let me say this - as a woman, it didn't bother me at all. Natural order of things and all that. It's a tried and true method to garner ratings. Good to hear... it gets kind of tiresome when some women feel that automatically, any sexiness in a show is a reason for them to act offended. Although, as Ronald D. Moore points out - it's not like any of the guys ever wore hotpants, so I don't think anyone could argue that its skewed toward the male demographic... but then, sci-fi is generally seen to be more of a guy thing. Traditionally at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 it's not like any of the guys ever wore hotpants Yes, but they dont call him Joan-Lycra Picard for nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Sex does sell and I think that Trek has used it but... when it came to VOY and ENT' date=' it was prevalent to the point where it was endemic. VOY and ENT both had women in catsuits... for no real reason beyond titillation. [/quote'] I agree...and let me say this - as a woman, it didn't bother me at all. Natural order of things and all that. It's a tried and true method to garner ratings. Good to hear... it gets kind of tiresome when some women feel that automatically, any sexiness in a show is a reason for them to act offended. Although, as Ronald D. Moore points out - it's not like any of the guys ever wore hotpants, so I don't think anyone could argue that its skewed toward the male demographic... but then, sci-fi is generally seen to be more of a guy thing. Traditionally at least. It's definately skewed towards guys. Been that way for a long, long time. Look at Fantastic Voyage - 1966, it had Raquel Welch - the sex kitten of her time. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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