Embassies burn in cartoon protest

[Guest c4evap]

MOD NOTE: Link to story removed due to problems it might cause.

 

OK...go and read it...what do you think?

 

My take? Seems the Muslim's think that any depiction of their god is a terrible thing...so...they go on a freakin' rampage. Seems like an even swap huh?

 

Yeah...that makes sense. We don't like cartoon so let's attack innocent people.

 

[sarcasm]Sure thing. Makes perfect sense to me![/sarcasm]

 

Here's a link to the pictures in question. Is this what all the fuss is about? Sheesh!

MOD NOTE: Link to pictures removed due to problems it might cause.

 

c4 :thinking:

[str82u]

I saw it, read it and well, that's how it is here in the forums, except that the fires are smaller. I'm not trying to make lite of it, it surely seems insulting, but I really didn't see the cartoon itself and only read the description. That was a little out of hand now that I think about it. They don't need to have a sense of humor about it, but certainly they can't believe they were doing the right thing by setting fires. Then again, maybe they do. How many abortion clinics have americans done damage to?

EDIT: O'kay, saw the cartoon, I missed the link first time out. I don'r know if it's so much the cartoon, but the commentary.

[Hilander72]

It's been on the news here (SWE) around the clock.

 

The Swedish Embassy was also burned down in Damascus, but I consider that to be collateral damage, since they shared the same building as the Danes. This protest is really turning into an ugly mess. I tried to find the original pictures from the source (www.jp.dk), but they have removed them or made them unavailable.

 

Jyllands-Posten has published an Open letter to Fellow Muslim citizens

 

I think the letter will have no or little effect...

 

The muslims are also boycotting Danish products and sadly that is affecting companies here in Sweden and other countries in Europe.

[Guest c4evap]

I say if they're going to attack innocent people - then we should tie them up and draw funny little pictures of allah all over their bodies!

 

c4 B)

[mateya]

I dont think this kind of cartoons will help us get along better and I bet they knew that this will upset the muslims and they did it anyway (the newspaper). And that kind of attitude I dont like. Why poke into somethink if you know that it probably can/will backfire? That is like deliberately stirring the pot of hatered in the name of "freedom of expresion". For what purpose? I dont see any reason behind this in the first place (on both sides - Im not supporting burning property and harrasing all dutch people either)..

 

p.s. c4 - they didnt depict Allah in cartoons but prophet Muhhammed (and wrote beside the picture "Muhhammed, angel or deamon?" - Danish guys please correct me if Im wrong). I wouldnt think this will bear good friuts if I saw it before publishing..

[brummy7175]

Its a pity, that some people lose their sense of humour when it relates to religion.

Personally I'm thinking of burning the English embassy (John Cleese and company made that hilarious (read blasphemous) movie Life Of Brian.

 

It's one thing to feel insulted, but attacking innocent people and countries just because one citizen did something stupid, we might as well condemn the whole world, because each and every country has at least one idiot who doesn't look before leaping (or thinks he's amusing).

 

Has anybody, newspaper or Tv station thought to tell these rampaging Muslims that the Danish newspaper published an apology for offending the Muslims, wasn't that what they demanded, or does it serve a better purpose not to tell them.

[Guest c4evap]

SNIPPET:

 

 

p.s. c4 - they didnt depict Allah in cartoons but prophet Muhhammed (and wrote beside the picture "Muhhammed, angel or deamon?" - Danish guys please correct me if Im wrong). I wouldnt think this will bear good friuts if I saw it before publishing..

 

I know. When I'm being silly I'm not too accurate. Personally, I think the Muslims are making way too much out of this whole thing. I think it's just another excuse for them to turn violent.

 

c4 B)

[Antipodean]

Those cartoons are drawn and published at the very least in a spirit of insensitivity, if not disrespect, towards the Islamic faith and its prophet.

 

 

True, the reaction of SOME muslims is also excessive.

 

But after the brutal murder of Matthew Shepard in Laramie, Wyoming (horribly beaten, burned, and lashed to a fence overnight in near freezing rain because he was gay) a group of homophobic and bigoted Christians came to Caspar, Wyoming to picket his funeral and dance on his grave, holding signs stating that "AIDS cures Fags."

 

The fact is there are people in all faiths who have done unreasonable, foolish and sometimes disgusting things.

 

 

 

However, what we MUST be wary of, if want to avoid foolishness on our own part, is to describe any culture, ethnicity or adherants of a particular faith as one homogenous group.

 

When you start externalising another group as a "they" that you mentally distinguish from some notion of an "us", it is a way of thinking that can very quickly lead to dehumanisation of this mental "OTHER" you have so created.

 

 

c4evap: So I guess what I'm getting to is a polite request for you to avoid such perjorative statements as the following...

 

I think the Muslims are making way too much out of this whole thing.

 

 

Because we're not talking about THE muslims here. We're talking about SOME muslims.

 

 

I know some might think I'm just being petty and PC and all the rest, but c4evap, I'd appreciate it if you humored me on this one. I'm not trying to have a go at ya or anything.

 

Its worth remembering that the last time in history that those of a particular faith got singled out as one monolithic suspect group in national discourse, I do believe the words use were "Die Juden".

[TetsuoShima]

Muslims that are offended by these things, aren't getting any sympathy from me. They do not gouvern my country, or any other in the EU for that matter. For all I care they can go on a rampage, they can only make things worse for themselves. We do not share the same morals as they do and we are not planning to, ever! If they keep on going on their 'holy war' path from the middle ages (yeah, get over it, the crusades were like 800 years ago), they will only isolate themselves further from the rest of the world. And yes, right now the world still somewhat cares for their opinion, but in 50 years time, when oil gets scarce over there and alternative energy is blooming, they can expect the same sympathy from the world as currently Afrika is getting, in other words: none! They'd better get prepared for that!

 

If we had to go out and start protesting in such a massive way as they did when we aren't happy with something minor they've done, we'd be out on the street 24/7!

 

As for all other non-offended and non-extremist muslims, keep on the good work and show those others what their religion really is about!

[Tenebrae]

I was watching this on the news earlier and just shook my head.

 

As I've already pointed out 1200 years ago, it was the other way around. Europe was full of fanatical mentalist Christians, while the middle east had more secularised Muslims. How the wheel turns, eh?

 

People seem to be saying "Why don't people like Islam?" and questions around that. Well, this, this is a prime example. Now, granted when Corpus Christi came out, there were some nonplussed Christians but I'm fairly sure you'd need to do something a little more than print blasphemy in the newspapers to enrage tens of thousands of Christians to the point where they marched along the streets of London with slogans like "Europe is the cancer, Islam is the cure".

 

People talk about a clash of civilisations. Seems like that's right.

[Antipodean]

Muslims that are offended by these things' date=' can go to hell for all I care. [/quote']

 

If publishers have the right to publish offensive material... it follows that those that the material concerns have a right to be offended. And they have the right to express that.

 

We are talking about conducting a civil society here. A civil society which folks like yourself - and indeed your islamic counterparts seem to want no part. When you wish another to go to HELL on the basis of their opinions that is EXACTLY what you are declaring - that you want to part of a free and civil society.

 

It was only in 2 countries that a minority of muslims saw fit to vent their anger in deplorable and unjustified violence with those embassy burnings. Accross the world, MILLIONS of irate muslims vented their anger in the usual ways that we are accomstomed to from any agrieved parties... peaceful protest, altering trade and business arrangements etc. And we shouldn't forget that.

 

They had a right to be offended. You might think that such offence speaks of a poor sense of humor. That's your call. Thats your right.

 

But there's no "CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS" (cue drammatic sound effect) at play here.

 

In January 2002 the New Statesman published a front page displaying a shimmering golden Star of David impaling a union flag, with the words "A kosher conspiracy?" The cover was widely and rightly condemned as anti-semitic. It's not difficult to see why. It played into vile stereotypes of money-grabbing Jewish cabals out to undermine the country they live in. Some put it down to a lapse of editorial judgment. But many saw it not as an aberration but part of a trend - one more broadside in an attack on Jews from the liberal left.

 

It probably was. Just as those Danish Cartoons probably really were intended to be somewhat offensive.

 

And guess what. In both cases there were Jews and Muslims repectively who got offended. And I don't hear ANYBODY here or anybody else suggesting some sort of a "CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS" between Jews and gentiles.

 

And you know what - THATS COOL. Thats the consequence free speech. You get the right to be offensive. AND you get the right to be offended too. Thats the deal. Thats how it works.

 

 

I'll acknowledge it again - it is true a minority of muslims in this instance behaved deplorably.

 

But if you wanted I could stick probably PAGES of links right here showing examples of Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Protestants, Catholics, athiests, even Buddhists that have at times expressed their offence through innappropriate violence.

 

Because no one faith or people has a monopoly on MOD NOTE: INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS REMOVED..

 

 

 

Anyhow - if I see even one more post here that even slightly stinks of racism and/or religious intolerance, MOD NOTE: INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS REMOVED.

 

TetsuoShima: NB. I don't suppose you read any part of my post above concerning labeling a particular people as "THEY"... as in lumping an entire people under the one umbrella? It's never intellectually honest or even factually accurate to do so and it does suggest a certain prejudice.

[TetsuoShima]

Well, I edited my post slightly before you posted. :p

 

And I did say, those that were truely offended by it...

 

Of course I agree, people everywhere have the right to be offended by things offensive to them. But they should find a way to vent that 'anger' in a civilised manner. If they don't, then as I said, they cannot expect any sympathy whatsoever and only make things worse for themselves. If I were a chief editor of a newspaper, My headline for monday morning would be a new comic, with a very sarcastic look upon those 'angry people' by Allah or Muhammed or whoever... Saying something like: get a life... They would deserve it, they were behaving like little children who didn't get their way. They should be placed in the corner of their rooms.... And it would probably be good for the sales too... :p

 

 

EDIT: Antipodean: well, my "they" refers to all those people that were so excessively offended and enraged by the cartoon that they felt it necessary to begin vandalising other peoples properties. I certainly do not mean the entire Muslim community, that would be truely unjust!

[Herold]

Not many is aware of this, but the editor of the newspaper wasn't actually going to run them, untill he saw 4 or 5 examples of others taking too much consideration to the muslims (museum items getting removed without the artist getting notified and others), he withheld the drawings for almost 2 weeks ... their religion is not any better than any other and no special considerations should be made to them over, say ... christianity or budhism.

 

And another thing, the 12 pictures that was published was not the only ones ... the editor actually withheld 2 because he thought they were too rude. As it turns out, some egyptians (on a mission of "peace" to their homeland, trying to calm the waters) brought those pictures and said they were the ones published. [/sarcasm on]Way to help the process[/sarcasm off]

 

On another note, the editor actually said sorry to the muslim people (as requested) and they respond with 2 bomb-threats. Not quite the response anticipated.

 

It is also sad, that the freedom of press (FoP) should be questioned in such a fashion ... they were drawings. Why wasn't the FoP questioned long before that, when they wen't over the line with "stalking" others for the news? Destroying lives in the process of making headlines? Take the papparazzi's, do they not cross the line of FoP every day?

 

Its worth remembering that the last time in history that those of a particular faith got singled out as one monolithic suspect group in national discourse' date=' I do believe the words use were "Die Juden".[/quote']That is a poor comparrison ... the jews didn't kill innocent's in the name of their religion and 6 million of the muslims haven't been brutally murdered in camps yet.

 

And guess what. In both cases there were Jews and Muslims repectively who got offended. And I don't hear ANYBODY here or anybody else suggesting some sort of a "CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS" between Jews and gentiles.

Most likely because the Jews didn't attack civilians, nor did they burn down buildings or threaten to kill 3000+ in the opposing country.

 

I don't believe this will end soon, nor do I believe this will end peacefully ... sadly enough.

 

P.S.

(on both sides - Im not supporting burning property and harrasing all dutch people either)..

Btw. ... it's danish, not dutch ;)

[Antipodean]

Its worth remembering that the last time in history that those of a particular faith got singled out as one monolithic suspect group in national discourse' date=' I do believe the words use were "Die Juden".[/quote']That is a poor comparrison ... the jews didn't kill innocent's in the name of their religion and 6 million of the muslims haven't been brutally murdered in camps yet.

 

Herold: Some Jews did in fact commit terrorist acts in order to bring about the state of Israel. This is on the historical record. My reference to a prior dehumanization of an entire population was not a poor one. It is NEVER NEVER EVER ok to lump an entire community under one negative stereotype. It is quite simply amounts to bigotry and can, and history has proven, sometimes does lead to extreme forms for inhumane treatment.

 

 

 

Also I clearly said that it was a minority of muslims that reacted violently to this. You claim I am wrong.

 

In 2000, the total number of muslims in the world was 1,902,095,000.

 

And you are trying to tell me that most of them reacted with violence?

 

Bull. Most of the protest has been peaceful. Perhaps your news services, like most in the world will report drama and conflict above peaceful gatherings. Check your facts mate, before you talk crap. In most countries with significant muslim populations, peaceful protests were held outside the relevant Danish embassies. Several nations withdrew their Ambassadors from Denmark. A boycott of Danish products in the Persian Gulf has cost the country $27m. This is how the majority of the protest has been carried out. This is all established fact.

 

 

With regards to the appology from Jyllands-Posten, it came FOUR MONTHS after publication, and only under considerable pressure. Basically it was not volunteered.

 

 

 

 

 

And guess what. In both cases there were Jews and Muslims repectively who got offended. And I don't hear ANYBODY here or anybody else suggesting some sort of a "CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS" between Jews and gentiles.

Most likely because the Jews didn't attack civilians' date=' nor did they burn down buildings or threaten to kill 3000+ in the opposing country.[/quote']

 

Talk about selectively quoting from my post. IE - leaving out this bit:

 

But if you wanted I could stick probably PAGES of links right here showing examples of Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Protestants, Catholics, athiests, even Buddhists that have at times expressed their offence through innappropriate violence.

 

Because no one faith or people has a monopoly on pricks and wankers.

 

 

No faith, no nation and no religion is without people who have attacked civilians and threatened to commit horrendous acts.

 

What you are effectively doing is suggesting that the majority of Muslims amount to being violent potential terrorists. This is nothing short of a racism and it disgusts me.

 

 

So Herold please - cut the vieled religious intolerance and come out of your bigot closet already.

[Herold]

With regards to the appology from Jyllands-Posten' date=' it came FOUR MONTHS after publication, and only under considerable pressure. Basically it was not volunteered.[/quote']Yes, I believe it was preasured ... which just shows that when the, using your words, muslim "pricks and wankers" (meaning the extremists), threaten enough they get what they want ... and all of this over some stupid drawings.

 

And I believe some moderator should LOCK this topic, as it is clearly a touchy issue and "foul, obscene, or demeaning language" has been used.

[Antipodean]

With regards to the appology from Jyllands-Posten' date=' it came FOUR MONTHS after publication, and only under considerable pressure. Basically it was not volunteered.[/quote']Yes, I believe it was preasured ... which just shows that when the, using your words, muslim "pricks and wankers" (meaning the extremists), threaten enough they get what they want ... and all of this over some stupid drawings.

 

And I believe some moderator should LOCK this topic, as it is clearly a touchy issue and "foul, obscene, or demeaning language" has been used.

 

 

 

Look at you jump about & change your line. You tried to tell me that the editor apologised, that he did the right thing. I corrected you. Now you try to tell me that this is proof of islamic extremism? You're missing a MASSIVE link in your logic buddy.

 

As I mentioned - Denmark has already lost millions of dollars of business because of Muslim outrage over the those cartoons. But you chose to assert that it was extremists that forced the apology? WHY?

 

The apology actually CAME THE EXACT DAY AFTER religious leaders in Saudi Arabia, which had recalled its ambassador to Copenhagen the week before, called for a boycott of Danish goods. The Danish Prime Minister immediatly welcomed the apology. Connect the dots buddy - the presssure that wrought the apology was political and comercial. Money makes the world go round.

 

 

At least we agree that they were stupid drawings. Major newspapers don't generally publish drawings of a heaven where Jesus is recieving IRA terrorists into heaven. That would be considered too offensive yeah? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

 

Herold - interesting isn't it? That as soon as I start calling you on what you are and where you really stand on these matters - that its then you want to shut the thread down? I'd actually respect you more if you just came out and said it, that you don't like muslims. That would at least be honest. Or perhaps you're just a troll. I don't care.

 

 

I put it down clear as day a couple of posts back:

if I see even one more post here that even slightly stinks of racism and/or religious intolerance' date=' I'll kick your friggin arse[/quote']

[lamp]

I find this whole thing quite amusing.

 

The fact that a cartoon of muhammad wearing a bomb shaped turban has caused people to come out protesting and threatening to blow Europeans up just enforces the streotype, thus the protest do more harm than the cartoon.

 

As for the heaven running out of virgins cartoon, thats just funny.

[Indi]

people just take things to far

[Antipodean]

US backs Muslims in cartoon dispute - Yahoo News

 

"These cartoons are indeed offensive to the belief of Muslims," State Department spokesman Kurtis Cooper said.

 

"We all fully recognise and respect freedom of the press and expression, but it must be coupled with press responsibility.

 

"Inciting religious or ethnic hatreds in this manner is not acceptable."

 

 

And a right proper pat on the back to the US Government. ;)

[Guest c4evap]

c4evap: So I guess what I'm getting to is a polite request for you to avoid such perjorative statements as the following...

 

I think the Muslims are making way too much out of this whole thing.

 

Because we're not talking about THE muslims here. We're talking about SOME muslims.

 

I know some might think I'm just being petty and PC and all the rest, but c4evap, I'd appreciate it if you humored me on this one. I'm not trying to have a go at ya or anything.

 

Its worth remembering that the last time in history that those of a particular faith got singled out as one monolithic suspect group in national discourse, I do believe the words use were "Die Juden".

 

I fully understand and respect your position. I should have said "those" muslims shown rioting on TV. My mistake.

 

Unfortunately - I must lock this thread. I had hoped that we could discuss this matter in a friendly intelligent fashion but the comments made by one individual have forced this action. A shame really.

 

c4 B)