GorunNova Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Faith isn't exactly proof of something, y'know... Anyone could have 'faith' in anything, and it doesn't mean anything that they have faith in exists. As an example, I could have 'faith' in the idea that you're an intelligent penguin... doesn't make it true, does it? Oh, but I have FAITH, and that's different somehow... :rolleyes: THAT is why I don't think of faith as a valid support for any system of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 IMHO...anything based on "faith" is a crock! I ain't from Missouri but ya gotta show me... c4 :p how can someone show you faith c4? Well, I probably shouldn't have said "anything based on faith..." cause I do employ faith in some aspects of my life. Tell me you're going to meet me at Joe's Bar for a drink at 10. I will take it on faith that you are going to show. If you don't, my faith in you deminishes (unless you had a damn good reason for blowing me off). I should have said "religious faith". The bible says: Turn the other cheek...so, you get slapped and don't slap back because you believe in what the bible says. You have faith in the words and concepts of the bible. You lead a good life cause you're sure you're going to heaven. That's religious faith. I don't operate on religious faith. I operate on what I can see, feel, hear, etc. I live my life based on right and wrong. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...until proven wrong. I know people that live by the opposite creedo: Do unto others...then split! I treat others as they treat me. If they respect me I respect them. But faith in god? I ain't buying. That was what I meant. Sorry...I should have been clearer. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Well, I probably shouldn't have said "anything based on faith..." cause I do employ faith in some aspects of my life. Tell me you're going to meet me at Joe's Bar for a drink at 10. I will take it on faith that you are going to show. If you don't, my faith in you deminishes (unless you had a damn good reason for blowing me off). Isn't that simply giving someone the benefit of the doubt? More of a "he seems okay, so I bet he'll be punctual" sort of hypothesis, as opposed to faith? If he doesn't show up, you now have logical evidence againsst that hypothesis, which you will later act on. Doesn't seem to me that faith has anything to do with it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Well, I probably shouldn't have said "anything based on faith..." cause I do employ faith in some aspects of my life. Tell me you're going to meet me at Joe's Bar for a drink at 10. I will take it on faith that you are going to show. If you don't, my faith in you deminishes (unless you had a damn good reason for blowing me off). Isn't that simply giving someone the benefit of the doubt? More of a "he seems okay, so I bet he'll be punctual" sort of hypothesis, as opposed to faith? If he doesn't show up, you now have logical evidence againsst that hypothesis, which you will later act on. Doesn't seem to me that faith has anything to do with it... Main Entry: 1faith Pronunciation: 'fAth Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/ Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE 1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions 2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust 3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs The above marked in red supports what I've stated. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 *shrugs* Whatever you want to call it. I was just pointing out that it could also simply be a line of reasoning based on giving someone the benefit of the doubt given no other prior evidence. I'm not saying you're wrong, but instead just mentioning that lumping such a neat little piece of reasoning under a five letter word seems kind of demeaning to the thinker to me, if you know what I mean. ^^ Besides, if it means 'fidelity to one's promises' and 'sincerity of intentions', wouldn't HE be the one then 'keeping faith' by showing up, and not you? He IS the one promising to meet you, after all... Edit: Sorry for the edit, but I just wanted to clarify that by my use of 'thinker' was as a cutesey slang word for the brain... that 'demeaning to the thinker' thing was just that if brains had egos, having it's work ignored would make it sad. ^^' Yeah, yeah, dumb, I know ^^... so praise that brain whenever you can! :D Okay, I'll stop being corny now ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 well heres a question then. does faith have to be religious. a lot of the contents of posts around here have had a lot to say about established religions doin bad bad things but no word about the individual. turning the other cheek, if it is the right thing to do as an individual believes can empower a person and/or energise them - why? (gettin slightly off topic) because that individual MANAGED THEIR EMOTIONS and rationale was in control. would it be fair to say self control is a product of faith or the following of an established teaching? that belief can be shared but after the horrible things done to people in the past i would choose not to associate myself with any of these religions - but does that invalidate the teachings they offer? when discussing religion i have noticed that a couple of contributors to the thread have asked some deeply searching questions to which i hope they find answers but seem unable to engage in any religious endeavor because of negative associations with the past. well they do exist and if you want to compare, many muslims condemn terrorists who act in the name of their established religion perhaps much like christians during the witch hunts etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Fleet Captain GorunNova...it's not my definition, it's in the dictionary. You: c4, I'll meet you at the bar at 10PM. Me: You sure you gonna make it on time? You: Hey...c4, have a little faith in me. fidelity to one's promises : sincerity of intentions Fleet Captain Maverick...you asked "does faith have to be religious?" No. I don't believe so. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 but even if it doesnt, is it possible to gain peace and/or a sense of fulillment from the established religions? (and lets leave the politics out of it for now and focus on what the individual can gain) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 but even if it doesnt, is it possible to gain peace and/or a sense of fulillment from the established religions? (lets leave the politics out of it for now and focus on what the individual can gain) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 fidelity to one's promises : sincerity of intentions ... and I was just pointing out that the -keeper- of those promises is the one that definition says has 'faith', not the one the promise goes to. Your example had HIM promising to meet YOU, so therefore HE would be keeping faith by showing up, and by not showing up he was 'breaking faith'. Unless both of you promised to meet each other, only he was the one 'keeping faith'... and this is using your given dictionary definition... and those are totally different definitions of 'faith' than any time 'faith' is used in the context of religion. *sigh* All of this is, of course, semantic nitpicking. ^^' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 fidelity to one's promises : sincerity of intentions ... and I was just pointing out that the -keeper- of those promises is the one that definition says has 'faith', not the one the promise goes to. Your example had HIM promising to meet YOU, so therefore HE would be keeping faith by showing up. Unless both of you promised to meet each other, only he was the one 'keeping faith'... and this is using your given dictionary definition. *sigh* All of this is, of course, semantic nitpicking. ^^' dont you mean BEING FAITHFUL? ...to his/her promise? the person he/she made the promise to has faith that the other will arrive at said place at aformentioned time. ur right tho. splitting hairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 No, I was just using her given dictionary definition... Who was sticking to their promise? The promiser, and so therefore the promiser would be holding faith, not the promisee. Who sincerely inteneded to go through with the promise? The promiser, not the promisee. Who promised to meet up with c4evap? The person who said he'd meet her (you, in the context of the piece?), and thus that person and NOT c4evap would be the one who would be upholding the faith. I was just pointing out that any claim of faith on her part is just plain inaccurate given the definition from the dictionary and as she worded the promise to meet her ^^'... Also, I believe that form of the word 'faith' is actually used in the form of 'keeping faith' and 'breaking faith'... of course, that's just my experience. Still doesn't change the point that when talking about her keeping faith that he will show up does NOT fit any of the definitions given from that dictionary entry (well, other than 'complete trust', but that's really a choice given one's knowledge of a person...) Is it just me, or has a lot of post space been eaten up by this? ^^' *sigh* Still... I can't help but seize things and follow them 'til the end. Bad habit of mine. ;p Edit: Whoo! I guess that means that c4evap trusts you completely, Maverick! ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 that doesnt surprise me in the slightest - the c4 trusting me thing. im sure she trusts me to do all kinds of crrazy things - completely. anyhoo. it would appear that faith is now just gettin on everyones nerves. one side keeps it the other side gives it. its one of those annoying words. a bit like when someone says "in a minute". the meaning is sooo open to interpretation that wars could begin over its def'n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Then again... there is something to be said, when talking about something important, to make sure everybody's working with the same definition of a word... or to even have clear definitions of words to begin with. This seems to be the big problem with 'faith'... often, people use it and don't have any sort of clear definition for it... how can anybody talk about something with a definition so vague as 'faith' seems to have? If everyone has their own definition, talking about it gets to be pretty darned useless ;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 .....so is it possible that an individual can gain something from established religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Oh, quite likely. It can be argued that people 'get something' out of recreational use of drugs and alcohol, too, and I'm sure some people can come up with an argument for the benefits of therapeutic head-banging. I think religion gets people to accept things without thinking about 'em or questioning whether or not those things are actually true, and leads to VERY lazy thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 is there a difference between acceptance of something and faith in something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 It depends... if you have a full set of logical reasons and reproduceable observations backing an article of faith, would we still call it faith? Gravity is a fact, so is the belief in gravity 'faith in gravity' or 'knowledge of gravity's existance'? Is believing in the existance of water 'faith in water' or 'acceptance of the existance of water'? It's all a matter of terms and what they're defined to mean. 'accept' is pretty clear cut, but 'faith' seems... garbled, nebulous in meaning... which is why I personally avoid the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 It depends... if you have a full set of logical reasons and reproduceable observations backing an article of faith, would we still call it faith? Gravity is a fact, so is the belief in gravity 'faith in gravity' or 'knowledge of gravity's existance'? Is believing in the existance of water 'faith in water' or 'acceptance of the existance of water'? It's all a matter of terms and what they're defined to mean. 'accept' is pretty clear cut, but 'faith' seems... garbled, nebulous in meaning... which is why I personally avoid the word. ...this could be drawn out. faith is the acceptance of something which at that particular time has no proof. gravity needs no faith, it simply is and there is evidence to prove it. if someone walked around stating that they had faith in gravity, people would nod politely then point, laugh and say loony. also, faith is illogical. there is no proof to support much of what people have faith in. is there a god????? prove it! or... prove there is not a god! ....so i'll ask again. what can faith or belief in god give a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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