cyberbob

I do not have anything against Americans in general. I was born and raised here in the USA and I agree with GorunNova when he said "current United States governmental administration" is what I dislike, not the people. Thats not to say that I don't think that there are people in this country who are doing it more harm than good but that is how things change!! Debate!! :) Without it how would we challenge each other and ourselves to better our culture as a whole? If I may borrow another quote from GorunNova: "there are idiots -everywhere-... the US doesn't have a monopoly on idiocy"

Yes...you did miss the point. The point is that even in the old testament we were still stuck making sacrafices to atone for our "sins". The key here is realizing what sin IS according to mainstream Protestants & Catholics (which if you are a mormon you are not but it will still do just fine for this). Sin is going against God's will. It is doing something wrong. No human EVER has lived their life without doing something wrong except for Jesus (according to the Bible) and nobody ever will. Ever hear "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?"? Ever hear "The only way to the father is by me"? The whole point is that we need to do something to be worthy of eternal "salvation". The whole point is that we NEEDED to sacrafice things to make up for our imperfections and NOW we have to admit our wrong doings and go to Jesus because only his sacrafice is now capable of atoning for our wrong doings. Well guess who made us? The same person who made Adam and Eve and who made them and their offspring. So yes, my comparison to a drunk mother does stand. He made Adam and Eve and we are still "his children" and none of us, not them and not us, are good enough to just exist in happiness without him. If you say, "hey, I just want to exist without being forced to bow down and ask for forgiveness from you for how YOU MADE ME" then guess what, you go to hell. That is a loving god? That is a fair one? As I said before, the bible doesn't make any sense. Free will is a myth if the Christian god does exist. And again, as said before, we here in the logical world have a word for that - entrapment. Two Choices - 1.)I can say "hey, so you were a bad designer and didn't build me capable of doing what it is that you wanted me to do so you had to die for me....im really sorry (which is a joke anyways. sooo you worship him for croaking on a cross *painful no doubt* and then not REALLY being dead(being raised from the dead) so that he can be worshiped by millions forever....yea....where do i sign up for that job!?!?!?!?)" or 2.) I can do anything except for what he wants and go to hell...FOREVER...yea....heck of a choice... you also completely missed the point with the tower of babel thing. I was talking about what god did compared to what god commands us to do. What you said about him not liking pride later on is completely pointless. So you can quote your Sun. school teacher who gave that to you as the reason for why he did what he did...well congratulations. As I said before - READ YOUR OWN BIBLE!!! what he said later on has nothing to do with why he ruined those people and their dream. He said, IN HIS OWN BOOK, that the reason he did it was because (and yes, I am well aware that this is like kicking a dead horse....I have put this quote in my last TWO POSTS) "look, if they can accomplish this when they have just begun to take advantage of their common language, and political unity, just think of what they will do later. Nothing will be impossible for them!, come, lets go down and give them different languages. Then they won’t be able to understand each other." SO for real......read it this time...I mean it.......I am not making up what I just posted there....actually READ THE BOOK YOU BASE YOUR ETERNITY OFF OF. I mean...you think that this is what you are going to be living with for all eternity...FOREVER right? yet you cant read the thing? just read it PLEASE before you post back with something that completely disregards what I just posted without actually looking at it or into it!

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You COMPLETELY missed the point..."Adam and Eve had to sin..." Really? Then why must I repent? As I said before it is like a women who can climb a mountain. Then she gets pregnant and drinks and does drugs and when her kid grows old enough to do what she did...they cant! why? because she made them that way! its the exact same thing. i am NOT going to take the blame for god's manufacturer defect (assuming he exists). He made us how we are. As we all love to say 'nobody is perfect'...except for Jesus right? How can you honestly love a god who would cripple you and put you down on earth and then blame you for not being as good as him. I refuse to act as if the mistakes that I make stain me beyond repair without the help of a "god" who supposedly made me this way. "most of the stuff..." you mean most of the stuff that can't be defended anymore right? because there are plenty of stupid things that the church still holds to be true. As I said before, many, many churches (Baptists, Catholics, and tons of non-denominational ones) do not let women hold the position of minister. they can only be "directors" etc... Same thing goes to the churches being against gay rights. We have had witch burnings, slavery and all sorts of other horrible things all in the name of god and MOST of it based off of the old testament cause you know what? youd be hard pressed to see jesus claiming that the only way to bring about change is through violence and suffering... "Also, god split the people and tongues up at the tower of babel because the people had sinned in their pride." Really? Or is that just what you learned in church? READ YOUR OWN BIBLE! I know I did, and when I did I learned a lot of things about "god". Never once does he say a single word about man's pride. NOT ONCE! but sure, you keep on believing what you learned in sunday school. if you read it through it says exactly what I quoted it as saying (from the New Living Translation *which is MUCH better translation than the KJV*) "look, if they can accomplish this when they have just begun to take advantage of their common language, and political unity, just think of what they will do later. Nothing will be impossible for them!, come, lets go down and give them different languages. Then they won’t be able to understand each other." Sorry if I am too sarcastic but this touches a bit closer to home. As far as the language - the forum has got filters up.

I think the biggest difference is that we force tobacco companies to educate people on its dangers. On top of that we restrict it so that only adults can buy it. The problem with Aspartame is that it is cheap and so they can put it into all kinds of things. To be more specific they can put it into a lot of things that children drink/eat and that just seems wrong. If an adult knows that cigs will kill them and we try our best to keep it out of children's hands well....thats their bus. To put a known carcinogen into something that all of our kids are going to be taking in though...eh...I dont know about you but it just seems inherently evil. For that reason I can kinda see why they would restrict it...I mean...banning it may be going a bit far but putting restrictions on it? That doesn't seem that bad. As long as we are looking at stuff that is bad for us though they should be "banning" high fructose corn syrup and hydrogenated oils as well. Actually, here in the US they are going to legally make it so that your box displays if you have hydrogenated oils in it. With the nasty stuff that does to your body, that is a good thing in my book. As for high fructose corn syrup, dude...your liver has to break that stuff down. For real. Considering how a lot of our kids drink a couple cans of soda a day...thats a lot of work to be putting on such a vital organ all for the sake of higher profits...then again..I don't eat red meat or drink much alcohol so I don't know...maybe my view is a little too biased lol :)

You know....I was going to try and keep from saying certain things here and was gonna just stick to the science side of thing but this just kinda hit a nerve. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church until age 14 and when I say I was raised there I mean it. My mother worked in a church full time and during the summers she would make us go with her every day. I swear to you that up until that age I never missed a revival, Sunday night service, Wed. night service, or Sunday morning service. After that we moved on to a Methodist church and then to a non-denominational one before I finally turned 18 and promptly moved out. That said, believe me when I tell you that I know more about the bible and the workings of the church than most ministers dooo... So I figured that I would write up a little something about the things that I see when I skip through from the book of Gen. to Lev. ****WARNING. THIS IS REALLY LONG**** AT Long Last!!! It IS FINALLY HERE!!! YES LADIES AND GENTS!!! IT’S THE GEN.-Lev. CRITIQUE!!! Now I know what most of you Christians out there are thinking. You are thinking, “Well it isn’t fair because Christianity is really based off of the teachings of Jesus Christ. I mean sure, we still believe that the old testament is real and that their God is the same that sent our Savior here and all but I mean….umm…yea I know!! You should just take it all figuratively or I mean….like just as an example or something….” Right. Well we’ll examine it anyway. Besides, you’ll be hard pressed to find Jesus say a damn thing about homosexuality yet most churches have taken a very, very, strong stance on it….where do they get it from you ask? OH YES!! THAT’S RIGHT!! The old testament!! They still teach about the ten commandments don’t they? Yeppers. And they still teach (at least the southern Baptist, the catholic church and many non-denominational churches do) about women being inferior (they aren’t allowed to hold the position of minister. Only director or supervisor) And I quote – (New Living Translation) Leviticus 8:22 – “Do not practice homosexuality for it is a detestible sin.” Well that IS interesting isn’t it? Lets look back in the bible and see what else they say in Leviticus. Well when I look back I see that .. wait what is this? …yes…yes in chapter fifteen of the same book it says that a woman on her menstrual cycle is defiled for the entire time and for seven days afterwards…..well that doesn’t seem right does it? Oh wait! But there is more!! Hahaaaaa not only is she defiled but so are all of her clothes, nething she touches, nething she sits on, or sleeps on and be carefull guys – cause if you sleep with her. Her menstrual impurity will be passed onto you !!! :-O this doesn’t just mean that she is impure whoopdie doo!! Nope, that means that the rest of us aren’t allowed to touch her or ne of the above mentioned “unclean” things. So we look further back and what do we see? More taboo! But why don’t we follow all of this to? Why do we only follow the bans on homosexuality? Who knows!!??!??! Maybe its because Christians just need another group of people to hate. I mean hell, most recently we have our mormons, before that there are the supposed witches, before that we have our Spanish inquisition, before that the crusades. I mean honestly – does the list of people that Christians have persecuted in the past ever really stop? Neways – more silly laws!! Exodus and Leviticus rules - a woman is unclean after giving birth and is for 33 days. Hmph…and I thought the ability to give birth was an amazing thing…silly me. If a dead animal falls in a well then the well water is not contaminated but the person who gets the animal out is….. If an animal that was once going to be edible dies and then you touch it…then you are defiled? Ok The mole, the mouse, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the common lizard, the sand lizard and the chameleon are also dirty…but only if they are dead? You must not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.. Do not curse anyone who rules over you… sorry slaves and those stuck under an evil dictator – looks like you are stuck. If you buy a Hebrew slave he must not serve for more than 6 years. If he becomes married and has children – they still belong to the owner even after he has been set free. Anyone who strikes father or mother must be put to death Anyone who curses father or mother must be put to death If a son talks back to his father the father may take him outside and stone him to death. If a slave is beaten to near death but recovers – it is ok cause the slaves master is its owner. If a bull gorges a man or woman or child….you stone it to death… If two men are fighting and one of the man’s wives tries to stop them from fighting by grabbing her husband’s genitalia – she must have her hand cut off…. Genesis!!!! :) Here is something I never really thought about until my gf told me about it. So there are these two guys right? And onea these guys steals a LOT of his brothers shit. So then he sees this brother coming and is all scared. He sends him all kindsa stuff and letters apologizing and all cause he is scared. When his brother gets there he is forgiven. Now what do the Christians focus on? Not the fact that his brother stole. The fact that the other one forgave. The entire bible is full of people, supposedly GOOD people, raping and killing and lying and stealing but as long as there is a moral that can be learned somewhere nearby – it is ok. Even if they question god and lie repeatedly (ABRAHAM!!!) – as long as god looks upon them highly – they are still good people. I mean look at Abraham REALLY. Look at all that he did. He lied to kings and got them in trouble with god. Now tell me if you think that this is fair – There is a guy who has a wife and he goes into another country and tells everyone that it is his sister. The king there is like hey she is hot I wanna marry her. Now this isn’t that bad right? Cause I mean its not like he was mislead or nething right? WRONG!!! Just cause Abraham was god’s little bitch – he gets away with it and the king gets punished!! THEN THE LITTLE SON OF A BITCH DOES IT AGAIN!!! And gets away with it AGAIN!! Yet Abraham is soooooo good right? Psh..yea..ok. The funny thing about the second time is that the king actually has her up in his room and doesn’t even do nething and god appears and freaks out on him saying how dare you!! This is abraham’s wife!! The king says whooaa man. I didn’t do shit to her yet and what does god do.. Oh..yea…yea I knew that. Now wait a second. This omnipotent all knowing god is like “ I was just testing you?” :rolleyes: Neways – back to the screwey bible stories!! Now this is the only other place I can find in these first four books that talks about homosexuality at all. So I’m sure that you have all heard of Sodom. The city god destroyed. Once again we have ourselves a wonderful situation. So we have ourselves this little do gooder who takes in some men who were sleeping on the streets. This makes him good right? So the men in the town come and say hey!! We want to have sex with the men who came into town. You know what the guy says? He says no! take my two virgin daughters and do them instead!! I mean honestly!!! You stupid people honestly take anything that you find in the old testament seriously? I mean really? You do? How the heck can you fall asleep at night knowing that you believe something so full of holes and lies!?!?!?!? Oops – got to ranting before the story was done – heheh, then the guy who saved the visitors (who were angels by the way) argues with god about leaving the city till the angels have to drag him out. When they finally get out he argues with god again and then finally ends up in the mountains where he himself nails his own to daughters. Well isn’t that just lovely. Great guy right? Well the church would certainly have you think so. Now for my absolutely most favorite tale from the entire old testament. The tower of babel At one point in time the whole of humanity spoke one language and migrated eastward. So they began to talk about construction projects. They were gonna make a great city that reached to the sky. It would bring us together and let us be one and keep us from scarttering they said. So what does god to in his jealous, childish, needy little rage? He comes down and says to these people. People who were establishing peace and self-dependance. People who were making themselves stronger and better and who were working together for a common goal – “look, if they can accomplish this when they have just begun to take advantage of their common language, and political unity, just think of what they will do later. Nothing will be impossible for them!, come, lets go down and give them different languages. Then they won’t be able to understand each other.” So god splits them up and gives them different languages. Now this is my loving and caring god right? :stare: Bullshit. That is nothing more than a selfish, lying, bratty little kid. How can anyone ever think of such a god as good? If anything it is a bully! A bully incapable of not being needed and wanted. A bully dependant upon OUR love and dependence. Similarly look at the Bible’s interpretation of our creation. Here we have two beings. Just created by god right? Now whatever they do or are going to do God already knows right? Now all that we are capable and incapable of is preset by god right? WE were JUST created by him. So we have these two brand spankin new people just sitting in the garden hanging out and satan comes along and tells them – hey! Eat the fruit, its kewl. So they eat the fruit and the next thing you know its all their fault!! They are so horrible!! Why? For the same reason we all are – because they sinned. They went against god’s will. So here you are with these two horrible people who screwed up. Well whos fault is that really? If I go out and create a computer program or genetically engineer another animal and there it is and its incapable of surmounting a certain challenge is that that creations fault? Is it ITS fault that I didn’t create it with the willpower, intelligence or strength to do my bidding? Is it ITS fault that it wasn’t born or brought about with the correct amount of knowledge to essentially be perfect? Its fault that it wasn’t created with all of the needed things to do everything the very way that I think is right? No. you cant throw me or neone else - whether that be Adam, eve, me or bob my neighbor into and unfamiliar ballpark, not knowing the rules or having the right equipment to play the game and then say look!! Why did you lose!! You are a failure now apologize!! Its almost as if this god of theirs loves conflict and needs it. I mean hell – its almost as if it isn’t perfect!! Whoda thought!! Lol, I mean you have this god who first of all creates angels and a lot of them mind you just to worship him. That is one needy being if you ask me. Then on top of that he has these things which he created soley to serve him ( other angels). Not to love him and be another thinking being like we humans but just servants and slaves. That is all these angels have been created for right? And then what happens? They rebel. Now let me make sure that I have this right. All you need are slaves. All you need essentially are really pretty robots to do your bidding. So you create thinking beings with feelings and emotions and then oppress them and get pissed when they don’t want to spend the rest of their lives kissing your ass. I mean eternity ok? FOREVER knowing that youd been created only to serve and worship something else. Can you really blame them? If nething – satan has every right to be pissed and so do we. God, as according to the bible, is a total jerk who shows nothing but selfish, childish, bullying tendencies and who needs to lie to us and guilt trip us and threaten us and quite honestly get us in a position of entrapment in order to make himself feel better. Check it out right here – you want onea your friends to read this and see the truth behind the first coupla books of the bible? just tell them this - “some guy has this stupid spelling and grammar error ridden page and at the end he says that hes sorry for satan” Cause if he exists – man that has got to sux. Gods highest ranking angel and all this time you know you will never be more than a slave. You know that you were created with emotions and feelings for the sole purpose of what? So that god could apparently just create you only to be destined to fall to hell? That’s how it would seem. On top of all of this. God f’d us over. It’s like a mother who drinks knowing she is pregnant. God, being all powerfull and all knowing COULD have made us better. But instead he made us weak and stupid. Perhaps smarter than animals but not smarter than angels. Not smarter than god. Not equal. It is unfair that we be expected to either be on par with him or admit that we are not and go to him for help. You don’t drink and smoke pot and do crack and then have a kid that is totally messed up and tell him to go climb a mountain on his own and get pissed at it when it fails. Its not its fault. Its creation was in your hands just like our creation was in gods and if hes gonna be pissed causa a manufacturing default – he can shove it up his holy asshole cause its his own damned fault! :mad: The bible, based soley on the first coupla books, has proved itself wrong. This is no perfect god. Not perfect according to modern human standards. And even funnier – not perfect according to his own holy ones. So you know what? If it IS all true. I feel sorry for all human kind. And yes – I feel sorry for satan to. Poor guy. Cause that would mean that we have a pretty crappy and assholish kinda guy for a god. I think I have let out enough steam now....reply if you dare ;)

so Ima do the creation thing first. Since the problem most people seem to have with it is the probability of life just begining I will start with that. SOOOOOOOO many people will throw out this nonsense about how if you were to take every molecule in every ant on the entire earth and then make them go the slowest speed that anything can possibly move to the end of the universe and back then that is how long it would take for life to just magically start out of what is available here on earth. I call BS Can you calculate the probability of throwing a "7" on a pair of dice when you don't know how many sides are on each di? This is the problem with these "calculations" that they presume to know that which they do not know. when you look at how our bodies work it is as simple as understanding DNA so the outside of a DNA is made up of a sugar and a phosphate between the sugar-phosphate backbones are the two base pairs That means that dna is just a sugar, phosphate group and one of the four bases and different sections of DNA code for different proteins depending on those bases Try and think of it as computer code. When you go to write a program you have different commands. Think of these "proteins" as commands. The problem that most creationist scientists have with life just forming is that they wrongly calculate the probability of one of these proteins just forming in the wild. A friend of mine on another board once explained it this way: quote: "The fallacy of these "calculations" is that they do not calculate the probabilities properly. I'll have to spend a little time and space on this to show the mathematical error involved in these calculations: Let us assume a protein is formed with the pattern ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 51 bonds between 52 amino acids all in one particular order, where each letter represents one of 20 amino acids, and the resultant calculation by {creationist\IDist\etcist} is that the probability of this forming is pm = (1/20)51 = 4.44E-67 or 1 in 2.25E+66 (veeeeeeeeeeery slim chance of it occuring in any reasonable amount of time) Your typical "creatortionista" number. But this only calculates one way this molecule can form: this ignores the fact that the bonds in the molecule can be formed in any order and still end up with the same final result. The probability of the first bond forming is not (1/20), because any one of the 51 bonds can form first. To calculate this mathematical probability properly, first we calculate the probability that not one of the bonds forms, and the mathematical probability of this bonding {not} occurring is: p{NOT}51 = {1-(1/20}51 = 0.07310 or 1 in 13.7 And this means that the probability of the first bond forming is actually: p51 = 1-p{NOT}51 = 1-{1-(1/20}51 = 0.92690 or 1 in 1.079 Almost a sure thing eh? We do the same thing for the next bond, any one of the remaining 50 bonds has the mathematical probability of: p50 = 1-p{NOT}50 = 1-{1-(1/20}50 = 0.92306 or 1 in 1.083 A little less sure, but still a pretty solid likelihood eh? Let's carry on ... p49 = 1-p{NOT}49 = 1-{1-(1/20}49 = 0.9190 or 1 in 1.0881 p48 = 1-p{NOT}48 = 1-{1-(1/20}48 = 0.9147 or 1 in 1.0932 p47 = 1-p{NOT}47 = 1-{1-(1/20}47 = 0.9103 or 1 in 1.0986 p46 = 1-p{NOT}46 = 1-{1-(1/20}46 = 0.9055 or 1 in 1.1043 p45 = 1-p{NOT}45 = 1-{1-(1/20}45 = 0.9006 or 1 in 1.1104 p44 = 1-p{NOT}44 = 1-{1-(1/20}44 = 0.8953 or 1 in 1.1169 p43 = 1-p{NOT}43 = 1-{1-(1/20}43 = 0.8898 or 1 in 1.1238 p42 = 1-p{NOT}42 = 1-{1-(1/20}42 = 0.8840 or 1 in 1.1312 p41 = 1-p{NOT}41 = 1-{1-(1/20}41 = 0.8779 or 1 in 1.1391 p40 = 1-p{NOT}40 = 1-{1-(1/20}40 = 0.8715 or 1 in 1.1475 p39 = 1-p{NOT}39 = 1-{1-(1/20}39 = 0.8647 or 1 in 1.1564 p38 = 1-p{NOT}38 = 1-{1-(1/20}38 = 0.8576 or 1 in 1.1660 p37 = 1-p{NOT}37 = 1-{1-(1/20}37 = 0.8501 or 1 in 1.1763 p36 = 1-p{NOT}36 = 1-{1-(1/20}36 = 0.8422 or 1 in 1.1873 p35 = 1-p{NOT}35 = 1-{1-(1/20}35 = 0.8339 or 1 in 1.1992 p34 = 1-p{NOT}34 = 1-{1-(1/20}34 = 0.8252 or 1 in 1.2119 p33 = 1-p{NOT}33 = 1-{1-(1/20}33 = 0.8160 or 1 in 1.2255 p32 = 1-p{NOT}32 = 1-{1-(1/20}32 = 0.8063 or 1 in 1.2403 p31 = 1-p{NOT}31 = 1-{1-(1/20}31 = 0.7961 or 1 in 1.2561 p30 = 1-p{NOT}30 = 1-{1-(1/20}30 = 0.7854 or 1 in 1.2733 p29 = 1-p{NOT}29 = 1-{1-(1/20}29 = 0.7741 or 1 in 1.2919 p28 = 1-p{NOT}28 = 1-{1-(1/20}28 = 0.7622 or 1 in 1.3120 p27 = 1-p{NOT}27 = 1-{1-(1/20}27 = 0.7497 or 1 in 1.3339 p26 = 1-p{NOT}26 = 1-{1-(1/20}26 = 0.7365 or 1 in 1.3578 p25 = 1-p{NOT}25 = 1-{1-(1/20}25 = 0.7226 or 1 in 1.3839 p24 = 1-p{NOT}24 = 1-{1-(1/20}24 = 0.7080 or 1 in 1.4124 p23 = 1-p{NOT}23 = 1-{1-(1/20}23 = 0.6926 or 1 in 1.4437 p22 = 1-p{NOT}22 = 1-{1-(1/20}22 = 0.6765 or 1 in 1.4783 p21 = 1-p{NOT}21 = 1-{1-(1/20}21 = 0.6594 or 1 in 1.5164 p20 = 1-p{NOT}20 = 1-{1-(1/20}20 = 0.6415 or 1 in 1.5588 p19 = 1-p{NOT}19 = 1-{1-(1/20}19 = 0.6226 or 1 in 1.6060 p18 = 1-p{NOT}18 = 1-{1-(1/20}18 = 0.6028 or 1 in 1.6590 p17 = 1-p{NOT}17 = 1-{1-(1/20}17 = 0.5819 or 1 in 1.7186 p16 = 1-p{NOT}16 = 1-{1-(1/20}16 = 0.5599 or 1 in 1.7861 p15 = 1-p{NOT}15 = 1-{1-(1/20}15 = 0.5367 or 1 in 1.8632 p14 = 1-p{NOT}14 = 1-{1-(1/20}14 = 0.5123 or 1 in 1.9519 p13 = 1-p{NOT}13 = 1-{1-(1/20}13 = 0.4867 or 1 in 2.0548 p12 = 1-p{NOT}12 = 1-{1-(1/20}12 = 0.4596 or 1 in 2.1756 p11 = 1-p{NOT}11 = 1-{1-(1/20}11 = 0.4312 or 1 in 2.3191 p10 = 1-p{NOT}10 = 1-{1-(1/20}10 = 0.4013 or 1 in 2.4921 p9 = 1-p{NOT}9 = 1-{1-(1/20}9 = 0.3698 or 1 in 2.7045 p8 = 1-p{NOT}8 = 1-{1-(1/20}8 = 0.3366 or 1 in 2.9711 p7 = 1-p{NOT}7 = 1-{1-(1/20}7 = 0.3017 or 1 in 3.3150 p6 = 1-p{NOT}6 = 1-{1-(1/20}6 = 0.2649 or 1 in 3.7749 p5 = 1-p{NOT}5 = 1-{1-(1/20}5 = 0.2262 or 1 in 4.4205 p4 = 1-p{NOT}4 = 1-{1-(1/20}4 = 0.1855 or 1 in 5.3910 p3 = 1-p{NOT}3 = 1-{1-(1/20}3 = 0.1426 or 1 in 7.0114 p2 = 1-p{NOT}2 = 1-{1-(1/20}2 = 0.0975 or 1 in 10.2564 p1 = 1-p{NOT}1 = 1-{1-(1/20}1 = 0.0500 or 1 in 20.0000 Notice that the last bond formed is the only one that has the mathematical probability of (1/20). Now to calculate the probability of all 52 amino acids lining up in the above formation with the bonds formed in any order we multiply the probabilities of each of the bonding stages, and we get: pm = (0.9269)x(0.9231)x(0.9190)x(0.9147)x(0.9103)x(0.9055) x(0.9006)x(0.8953)x(0.8898)x(0.8840)x(0.8779)x(0.8715)x(0.8647) x(0.8576)x(0.8501)x(0.8422)x(0.8339)x(0.8252)x(0.8160)x(0.8063) x(0.7961)x(0.7854)x(0.7741)x(0.7622)x(0.7497)x(0.7365)x(0.7226) x(0.7080)x(0.6926)x(0.6765)x(0.6594)x(0.6415)x(0.6226)x(0.6028) x(0.5819)x(0.5599)x(0.5367)x(0.5123)x(0.4867)x(0.4596)x(0.4312) x(0.4013)x(0.3698)x(0.3366)x(0.3017)x(0.2649)x(0.2262)x(0.1855) x(0.1426)x(0.0975)x(0.0500) = 5.39E-13 or 1 in 1.85E+12 Which, while still large is significantly "more likely" than 1 in 2.25E+66. And the longer you take these kinds of calculations out the disparity between the "creatortionista" calculation and the real mathematical calculation grows. And this still does not adequately model all the possible ways the molecule could form. For starters, there are only 20 amino acids so those 52 positions have to have some repeats: the likelihood of a certain amino acid forming a "wrong" bond for one location does not mean that it is not "right" for another location, and the more often a certain amino acid is repeated in the whole protein the more this becomes a factor. To properly model this you need to apply it to specific examples. For further possibilities, there are any number of larger molecules that could be formed with "mistake" sections in them, where one or more amino acids are injected into the above sequence during formation, but which are then knocked out (cosmic ray bombardment, copy error, etc) leaving the proper formed molecule. This is not included in the "creatortionista" calculations, it is not even addressed." Now I know that all of that can be a lot to digest at once but the point is that once you understand the math and chemistry behind what we are made of at the most basic level, you can begin to understand how it is not so improbable, much less impossible, for the most basic forms of life to have just formed. I mean, the difference between improbable and impossible is vast, no matter what the number calculated actually turns out to be. Life could indeed be a highly unlikely event on the grand cosmic scale (but still nowhere near as rare as most Christians are told it is). That does not prevent it from happening, and more to the point: once it has happened the probability is irrelevant. You could flip 50 heads in a row the first time: probability does not say when in the course of events the improbable happens. To argue from the existence of life that the "improbability" of it is evidence of miraculous intervention is just a post hoc ergo proctor hoc logical fallacy. Life CAN just form and its forming is not dependant upon some "super once in 108 billion years using all of the matter given to us in the universe under just the right circumstances" chance. Next post I will leave some information on the theory of evolution. Feel free to ask questions on what I have posted above. I realize that I may not have done the best of job in explaining it so I truly beg that you do not hesitate to ask about anything that you do not fully understand. My problem with most Christians is not that they believe what they believe but rather that they never take the time to look at the evidence that is presented to them. Most never take the time and energy to investigate what it is that others are talking about and agree to disagree with it because the Christian Coalition or the Moody Bible Institute told them to and NOT because they took the time to research it and learn about it themselves. **EDIT: In case any of you were interested in learning more about some of this - http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~eeob/eeob400/The_onset_of_selection.pdf ******* ***2nd Edit: In rereading what many of you have posted I see that we have another problem in that many of you are mixing Evolution with "The Big Bang". The two are very different. Evolution talks about how life went from what it WAS to what it IS. It does not postulate on the origins of the universe.*****

In case any of you still haven't seen the video :-)

In case any of you still haven't seen the video :-)

A friend of mine once got busted for uploading Doom 2, lol. I don't know of anyone outside of him (in person) who has ever been in trouble for anything like that.

Peerguardian all the way...anybody heard of a better way?

I now use something called rapid share. For 30 bucks ever 6 months this German site lets me dload from an actual ftp server. Only thing is that you can not just browse their content and so you have to look around at message boards and find posts of people who have uploaded things and then go rapid share and enter in the contents ID and then download it. I don't know....I guess that way they can keep it kind of private while at the same time they can have the free service as well (you have to wait in que though) without being too bothered by the MPAA/RIAA For real though....200-500K/s isnt bad at all

When I was 9 I saw "the net". I know now that it was such a script kiddie thing for me to do but back then I thought that Sandra Bullocks friend "cyberbob" was the coolest thing ever and so I named myself after him. It has stuck ever since then. Within a week after seeing that movie I made an AOL sn based off of that and I still use it. My Slashdot name is that....my blogs...everything lol. whats funny is that bob isnt even my name lol....its charles

rofl, those are hilarious

str82u, I was not apologizing to you, I was apologizing to the other people on the board who had to deal with reading my ouburst and that is why I sent the message directly to you two instead of leaving it on the board...thanx for reposting it though.... What I wrote to you and Sov stands. As it is though, I don't care anymore. I understand that everyone was stressed out and I look forward to getting to know you better. What I wrote about me not posting here often was the truth. Ive been lurking around for well over a year reading over what all of you said and not posting much of my own. From here on out I think Im going to be actually contributing more often. Nite didnt have to leave these forums open and honestly, it probably would have helped his case had he just shut them down along with the tracker but in the end his appreciation for the community that he helped create has obviously inspired us all to speak up. As sad as it is, maybe it will make us all a little closer.

I am sorry that I have over reacted. I deleted my post from the forum

I had 4 episodes on my little 1Gspace/10Gbandwidth server and they ended up on Google Video...all of my bandwidth lost in 3 days... :-(

These articles say that we are over 24,000 strong? Well what are we going to do about this? Who here wants to start up a fund to help in his defense? Can we get enough of us together to go and stage a protest on the trial date (assuming there is one)? 24,000 people is a lot of people and I don't know about you but Nite and this site mean more to me than my vacation days!!! If anyone is interested lets hear it. Post back and lets see who is willing to stand up to these guys. Even now though we must be careful. I am going through a couple of other servers to mask my IP before typing this but lets do it. Organize a resistance right in front of them.

I loved this site and I will miss you all. Nite, if we donate money will it go to your defense? I am sure that many if not all of us would be willing to help out. You gave so much to this community and this site and your name will stick with us all. 50 years from now I hope to remember this site, the people on it and what you did as the begining of a revolution which helped to spark a change in how this country and others handle IP. I am sorry that this happened to you buddy. -cyberbob

Everyone hates us and I personally think that we went about it the wrong way. Yea...Id say its goin pretty bad

I have always considered myself a democrat I am against the war, I am against how most republicans like to handle their big bus. I agree with the democrats' views on education, the environment, social security/wellfare, foreign policiy etc... I am kinda in between as far as abortion is concerned. I think that the often times Religious Right controlled Republicans can go way too far in one direction while the ultra left-wingers can go a bit too far in giving women freedom over what they do to a fetus/baby. My biggest problem with the Republican party is that I can not trust them. It seems like every other thing is a lie. Only other thing I can agree with the Republicans on is gun control.

Thanx Nite!!! :p

Im gonna make a fan site that we can also use for our clan/guild This is def. one that I'm buying on release day and will be playing hard core. :p

Ender's Game Hands Down!!!!!! :p

Anyone see House of the Damned? Based off of the game they tried to put in little snippets of the game here and there to be cool. Games are games, movies are movies - in trying to put in the game FX they will just make the movie corny