Dominion Vrs. Brog

[TFMF]

Now this brings us back to an even earlier point - can a Founder be assimilated - cause i mean in that ep Broken Link - the DS9 crew were going to inject like a tracking thing into Odo - but they didn't cause they thought it would just disperse throughout the Link - so would these nanoprobes be able to stay inside the Founder....and how would they detect the Founder - we know they are impossible to detect - if it morphed into a rock all they would detect is a rock so the Borg may not be able to catch the Founder...

 

 

In DS9 - A new breed of Jem Hadar were created - Alpha's - these Jem hadar were better suited to fighting in in that Quadrent or somthing like that - now a similar tactic could be used here - to create Jem Hadar (Delta's) that could fight the Borg better and be more resistant to the Borg...

 

[Bapman]

Yes... but you're still missing my original point.

WHEN were the Alphas created !?... From the start !?... ofcourse not... after they lost their huge fleet THEN they created them. So... ofcourse the Dominion would modify the troops... I'm not arguing against that.

I'm saying... they won't HAVE the Deltas b4 the BORGS have already assimilated a few.

You don't try to fix something if it isn't broken.

And by assimilating a few... I Borg would learn to adapt to the changes the Founders made to create the Deltas. 'Cause that's what Borgs do... assimilate and adapt.

And I never said that a Founder can be assimilated. I'm more leaning towards they CANT be.

BUT that doesn't mean you cant capture one or experiment on it.

And about a BORG cube... remember... if any foreighn object stays in the cube for more than 1 hour... they are considered as a threat... but there has NEVER been a time whn the BORGS did NOT detect someone / thing entering their cube.

That's why the Janeway... Tuvok n Torres had to get assimilated in UNIMATRIX ZERO. To stay undetected.

Sooo... turning into a rock isn't going to help the Founder... even more 'cause remember the BORG forcefields. They only let Borgs through. Lastly... the MOMENT a founder does something... he'll get detected. So turning a rock or wall isn't going to help much... 'cause these aren'tr the FEDs. BORG ship systems... including their hull platings are connected to the collective's thoughts.

So anyway you look at it... The Founder WILL either be TRAPPED in a BORG cube... 'cause it came back to the Delta Quad... or he'll get detected.

On top of that... the Founders need to return to their liquid state... when THAT happens... if the Cube is in Delta Quad... that fellow is gonna be SO SCREWED.

[TFMF]

Yes but it's just like the Borg - the Dominion will adapt - these delta Jem Hadar will be created BEFORE the Borg acheive to much of a victory - and like a virus being introduced into the collective - it will take time for the Borg to adapt to...

 

To be honest - i can't see what the Borg could learn from assimilating the Jem Hadar - it would be much easier just to destroy them - i mean what could they learn - take assimilation viruses - yeah sure they could learn how to create one and use it to assimilate Jem Hadar - but why bother - how would they introduce it...

 

And Janeway and co can't morph into things - they are still detectable normally - the Founders won't be cause they can morph into a peice of metal say and the Borg wouldn't notice it or detect it...And there's no way the collective includes the elements that make up a cube - they need resources to build them. They arn't apart of the Collective

[Bapman]

But the Jem'Hadars WONT be... simply 'cause the DOMINION didn't do that with war against the FEDS... so its proper to assume that they won't do the same whn going against the BORGS.

Specially... WHY would they !?... If the Dominion doesn't know about assimilation... if no troops are assimilated. WHY would they create the Deltas !?... They won't.

Oh... and yes... its easier to kill the Jems... but u forget... by assimilating the Jems... the Borgs would gain tactical data. THe new nanoprobes could be targetted to kill them in large numbers or assimilate thm in large numbers. About assimilating IS useful... 'cause u'd be turning ur enemies troops on them.

WHY do you think they send 1 Cube. 'Cause they take resources from other cultures to use against them.

When that fails... they come in horde and wipe them out.

And about the Founder... even if he cant be detected... as I said... WHT is he gonna do !?

Plus... liquid state !?

What's gonna happen when he changes !?

Assimilating 1 Jem n 1 Vorta has so much use 'cause creation of better nanoprobes... gaining tech n tactical data.

[TFMF]

Remember when The Hansin family studied the Borg - they were able to study them for ages before being descovered - The Founders could do they same and could even do somthing that could sabotage the whole collective - those Ceteral Plexus things - they could introduce a virus there - very deadly

[Bapman]

True...

But remember... the fate of the Hanson family !? You underestimate the BORGS... tht's wht happens !?

The same could happen to the founder.

and also the number has be VERY low like 3... for them to NOT consider thm a threat.

[TFMF]

All it takes is one Founder - do you remember the Episode Paradise Lost or Homefront where a Founder confronts Sisko and tell him there are only 4 founders on Earth - Only 4 founders on a Planet - that's all they need - now they'd only need 1 for a Cube - much harder to be detected. and even if it was discovered - imagine the secrets it could uncover before it is - the Hansons wern't found for a long time...

[Bapman]

BUt my point is THAT.

HOW is the founder gonna learn about the BORGS and even if he DOES... how is he gonna divulge it !?

Once the founder is in the Cube... there's no way off for him.

[TFMF]

We know the Jem Hadar have long range transport tech and i doubt the Borg could keep there sheilds up for long periods of time - imagine the power drain on keeping a sheild up on such a large vessel. And the Founder could surely access there computers or use similar methods to what the Hansons used.

[Tenebrae]

If a Founder imitated a Borg drone, they'd read like one. The Borg don't even seem to set a password on their screensavers - so it would be cake for the founder to h4x them.

 

Of course the real issue is that people seem to have forgotten that the Borg did actually adapt to transports (and of course, the Borg were totally incapable of adapting to that in ALL of Voyager). The footage of Wolf 359 has the Cube shrugging off damage like it's not happening and shredding ships in SECONDS...

 

The Borg got nerfef for real but then the Dominion have been around for 10,000 years. Sure they can manage to do lightyear transports but otherwise they're pretty much on a par with the Federation in terms of weapons/shields/speed etc. That's a bit unrealistic... oh wait WE COULD NEVER HAVE THE FEDERATION LOSE!

 

I actually think that a full scale Borg invasion (full scale... that would be like 4 cubes?) of the Alpha quadrant would have been a bit of a larf during the Dominion war.

 

Also - given what happens in ENT "Regeneration"... why do the Borg never REALLY try and take over other vessels. Come on, they could have made a nanobomb if they wanted.

[Bapman]

To TFMF's reply.

 

1 problem...

What if the Cube returns to the Delta Quad with a founder !?

and as I said b4... the founders are not gonna just go on a undercover mission if they didn't consider the Borg a sufficient threat.

By the time that happens... the Borgs would've blow up few hundred ships... and assimilated few hundred Jem'Hadars. A lot of them will go back to the Delta Quad.

Like we've seen in VOY... a lot of the species from alpha quad are present in the Delta quad collective... even ppl from wolf 359.

See...

you're still playing out the tactic as if the Dominion had access to Delta Quad... or if the battle took place in 1 quadrant... its not.

PLUS... how do u assume that the BORG ship can't maintain shield over their large vessel !? You also doubted the number of the borg ships... or their territory just 'cause they got beat by the FEDS.

The FEDS had a LOT of "magic bullets" in their disposal for getting rid of the Borgs.

 

1) The Hansons studied the Borgs for YEARS... on 1 ship... n even then they couldn't stay safe

2) The Borgs were defeated 'cause VOY got lost in the Delta Quad through the caretaker... if that never happend... Feds won't have defeated the borgs.

3) Even THEN... VOY only defeated the Borgs 'cause Future Janeway came and gave thm Super Ablative armour and Transphasic torpedoes... to which Borgs even started adapting. Dominion don't have those toys either. Sooo I don't know how the Dominion can harm a Cube.

4) Ppl keep referring to how the VOY went against the BORG... so others should be able to also... look

Voy had 7 of 9.... I doubt anyone has her... or someone with Borg expertise.

5) Locutus incident... Borgs assimited someone with technical n tactical know how to beat the Feds... why won't they do the same incase of Dominion.

6) In 1st contact they only managed to blow up the Borg cube 'cause Picard knew the weakness... n he was Locutus.

7) In Best of Both worlds they managed to Defeat the Borgs 'cause AGAIN... picard told thm wht command to use on the collective mind... b4 that... they got massacred and Enterprise was clueless as to what to do.

8) In Q who... they didn't manage to defeat the Borgs... so they ran n Q helped.

 

Sooo see... unless the Dominion have something equal to Picard / Locutus... 7of9... or future Janeway or Species 8472... you can forget about the transporter and all other tactics everyone is coming up with.

Simply put... Dominion doesn't have the same edge or advantage against the Borgs... the Feds had. Their techs and stuff maybe higher compared to the FEDS but they r not in any near level as the Borg.

Just like Sisco was desicive in defeating the Dominion... n Odo was important to discover changeling weaknesses and to infect the collective.

Those r the ways FEDS defeated the Dominion

That brings up another point. The chagelings were infected by Section 31... n almost died.

the BORGS can do the same only way more sophisticated.

 

[TFMF]

Ok - i've got the energy to reply again...

 

Right now if a Borg cube with a Founder on it were to return to the Delta Quad - that is just a risk - i mean they couldn't really know that a Founder on Earth couldn't have been killed or whatever - the Founder would return when it's ready...and if it does end up in the Delta - PERFECT - if it can get to Unimatrix Zero - great lets blow up some things! - but perhaps the Founder is considered defeated then but in some cases the Founder may not need to return - it could just sabotage the collective...

 

And i think by saying "The Hansons studied the Borgs for YEARS... on 1 ship... n even then they couldn't stay safe" reinforces my argument cause - they were a family- they were able to study the Borg for years without being discovered with just one ship - that's a great acheivment!