StitchInTime Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 I meant from my OBEs. So it is thought' date=' so shall it be done.[/quote'] Suspiciously reminiscnet of, "Make it so." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 But personally' date=' I reckon it's worth looking about at the 'design' of our bodies, for example our appendix's that do literally NOTHING, but which for about 1 in 5 people flares up and which without modern medicine is likely to kill you.[/quote'] Just because medical science hasn't figured out what this organ is for, doesn't mean it doesn't have a useful purpose. Doctors used to think tonsils were worthless, and routinely took them out when they became inflamed. Research showed, however, that when people refused to have their kids tonsils removed the kids recovered. Furthermore, later in life, right into adulthood, in fact, these children developed a lot fewer respiratory infections due to the useful protection provided by these lymph nodes. As in, our bodies are built such that for most of human history, 1 in 5 people have died for no reason whatsoever besides crappy design. And this is only once case in point along with a few other questions I mentioned in the Evolution vs Creationism/Evolution Denial thread: Why do we have knees and backs that give out all the time, when it is easy to imagine better designs - even for us non-omnipotent beings? (Seriously, some people have already conceived of more ideal bone structures) Why are humans made so that without modern medicine, giving birth frequently kills the mother just when she is most needed? One version of religion's answer to that is that it's all a result of original sin. The explanation goes something like this: before the fall, we all had perfect bodies, and original sin was the cause of all the flaws and the resulting pain and suffering we see today. Some have also argued that when humans fell, so did the rest of creation, which would explain the earthquakes, etc. Now I've heard the line that all that sort of thing is all part of god's plan, and just to trust him. Well I'm sorry - any god whose plan for the future can't come to pass without spilling the blood of millions of children just isn't thing creative enough. Yes, with plans like these, perhaps someone needs to give the great power in the sky a new datebook. So yeah, it seems to me that we have a choice between the position on hand that there is no god at all, or on the other hand we have the possibility of a perverse god. Actually, there is another altenative, which has been proposed. It has been suggested that the big "G" is not all powerful, that what was set in motion has a life of its own, and it's up to us to make the best of it. There are quite a few books on the topic floating around. One, the name I can't remember, but which I'd like to read one of these days, was written by a Jewish Rabbi after the Holocaust. Another, in the Christian faith, is called "Original blessing," I think. I forget the details of the idea, and I don't think I've explained it very well, but some people might find it worth looking into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruk Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Santa is based on a real person. So is Christianity, Islam, Mormons etc. Evidence is pretty strong that Jesus likely existed (Christianity didn't spring up from nowhere after all, but did have a basis in fact), although obviously his divinity is questionable. Same goes for other religions. My point though isn't about if God is real or not, but if the *belief* in God creates real results and thus makes it seem real. After all, its proven that what we think does have a physiological effect upon our bodies. believing the moon is made of green cheese doesn't make it so True, but if you were a cheese addict, and the comforting thought of all that cheese appearing nightly in the sky above you kept the addiction at bay, then perhaps it IS real, at least for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 My point though isn't about if God is real or not' date=' but if the *belief* in God creates real results and thus makes it seem real.[/quote'] Lots of things create results, but I prefer my results to be based on reality. After all, its proven that what we think does have a physiological effect upon our bodies. Actually, thought is physiological. believing the moon is made of green cheese doesn't make it so True, but if you were a cheese addict, and the comforting thought of all that cheese appearing nightly in the sky above you kept the addiction at bay, then perhaps it IS real, at least for you. The picture in your head is real in the sense that it's a product of various chemical processes in the brain, but that does not make the moon into cheese. Hence, the idea is real, but it's not reality. Thinking something is real doesn't make it real. What you are saying is the person doesn't know that it isn't real. I'd rather know, and proceed from what I know. I agree, however, that imagination can be a useful device for speculation, and that religion does bring comfort to a lot of people, but I think we can do better than that, in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wahaha Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Lots of things create results' date=' but I prefer my results to be based on reality.[/quote'] Who's to say or know that this reality is more concrete than another reality that we haven't experienced, or have forgotten about. Dreams can seem more real than life, and you don't even know it's not reality, until something doesn't make physical sense, or you somehow become MORE aware of your environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Lots of things create results' date=' but I prefer my results to be based on reality.[/quote'] Who's to say or know that this reality is more concrete than another reality that we haven't experienced, or have forgotten about. Dreams can seem more real than life, and you don't even know it's not reality, until something doesn't make physical sense, or you somehow become MORE aware of your environment. Based on that logic - nothing is certifiably real. It comes down to that old meme in philosphy encapsulated by the chinese philosopher who once dreamed that he was a butterfly. It did not know that it was Chuang Chou. Suddenly he awoke, and was Chuang Chou again. He did not know whether it was Chuang Chou dreaming that he was a butterfly, or whether it was the butterfly dreaming that it was Chuang Chou. But in the end, taking the position that there is nothing demonstrably real doesn't offer substance, any meaning or anything to be gained for human knowledge. It amounts to just giving up on finding answers, or saying you might as well believe anything. While there are limits to what we can hold to be true, science remains the most materially grounded of methods to give us workable answers to the big questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Lots of things create results' date=' but I prefer my results to be based on reality.[/quote'] Who's to say or know that this reality is more concrete than another reality that we haven't experienced, or have forgotten about. Dreams can seem more real than life, and you don't even know it's not reality, until something doesn't make physical sense, or you somehow become MORE aware of your environment. I don't know whether it's 'concrete,' aluminum, or particle board, but it's the only one I have at the moment. I'm not concerned about what 'can seem' real, but what is real. It may not always be easy to figure this out, but I am determined to try. But in the end, taking the position that there is nothing demonstrably real doesn't offer substance, any meaning or anything to be gained for human knowledge. It amounts to just giving up on finding answers, or saying you might as well believe anything. While there are limits to what we can hold to be true, science remains the most materially grounded of methods to give us workable answers to the big questions. Nicely put. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Maybe GOD only exists when you need him/her the most... c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Maybe GOD only exists when you need him/her the most... Hmm. Fascinating speculation. Quantum physics.--Like one of those particles that seem to wink in and out of existence, but you can never tell for sure where or when. ;) That could explain a lot. :cyclops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Maybe GOD only exists when you need him/her the most... Hmm. Fascinating speculation. Quantum physics.--Like one of those particles that seem to wink in and out of existence, but you can never tell for sure where or when. ;) That could explain a lot. :cyclops: Wouldn't that amount to a god that depends on human suffering and sadness to exist? That would explain why the world is so messed up at least. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 god is described by christian religion as almost a person. the first thing i think of when thinkin about god is an old man in greeky lookin robes and a big white beard with a clipboard and hard hat - this is partly an individual take as i believe "constucting the bloody universe" is a rather large undertaking. anyhoo.. as god has been so ill definedis it possible to truly comment on the situation? as the situation stands i have to say no. i DO like the force idea thing tho. that is nice. it kind of explains everything without mysticism and may have roots in many belief systems. thing is, when we refer to god or worship, pray to or acknowledge a god, what is it we are addressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulreaper Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I think what most people *refer to* is that dude with the beard. If I'd say I believe - and leave it at that, it has NOTHING to do with any dude with a beard - forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamp Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 As you have spelt god as such then i supose that the universe may allow for gods If you had asked about God then i would have to say no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 when i think about god all i can imagine is a grey void. no depth or dimension of any kind. alomost like nothingness. weird huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Hmm. Have you paid your cable TV bill? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 The simple fact that I exist says that there was a creative force of some kind, and through causality, I might be able to follow that back to the beginning of the universe. However, this universe alone does not possess a mechanism to create itself. That means that outside this existance, something created it. Whether that creation was intelligent or not, is really the only thing in question as far as I'm concerned. As far as the argument of an infiniteley existing universe goes... expanding, colapsing, repeat, etc... that's been disproven since the rate of expansion is accelerating and not slowing down. One day, the universe will die a cold death. But even if it were to have no end, there still is no mechanism within this universe that could have magicly created itself. Which means that outside the confines of of the dimensions of height, width, depth, and time, there is another dimension. One which superceeds causality, just as our fourth dimension of time allows us to progress from moment to moment and superceed the existance of being frozen only in one unchanging state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quosego Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 To be honest were just not smart enough yet to figure it all out, so i'll have to stick with an maybe.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilander72 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 I answered NO. Religion is always changing, adapting and new modifed religions emerges constantly. God is an invention. :thinking: "Everything can always be explained if someone is listening" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 The simple fact that I exist says that there was a creative force of some kind' date=' and through causality, I might be able to follow that back to the beginning of the universe. However, this universe alone does not possess a mechanism to create itself. That means that outside this existance, something created it. Whether that creation was intelligent or not, is really the only thing in question as far as I'm concerned.[/quote'] The latest scientific theory that I've heard is that our universe was created by the collision of two parallel universes. So, there was no need for our universe to 'create' itself from scratch. As far as the argument of an infiniteley existing universe goes... expanding, colapsing, repeat, etc... that's been disproven since the rate of expansion is accelerating and not slowing down. One day, the universe will die a cold death. Based on this theory, as it contnues to expand, our universe will eventually collide with another universe, hence leading to the creation of yet another universe, which will then expand until another collision occurs, and so on. But even if it were to have no end, there still is no mechanism within this universe that could have magicly created itself. Which means that outside the confines of of the dimensions of height, width, depth, and time, there is another dimension. Actually, according to the theory, there are eleven dimensions. Of course theories keep changing as new information comes to light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulreaper Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Which really means; science and religion eventually go hand in hand - in a sense! That which used to be 'belief' becomes fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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