Arktis Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Well, most christians would say that you should never point to a man as reason for saying God has problems, because men are weak and flawed. However, on the same token, the bible tells christians to be examples to others so that they might convert. So, whatever. Take it or leave it. If you're a christian, your doubts ultimately don't mean anything because you're just supposed to set them aside and have faith when they can't be resolved. If you're not a christian, you can take those quibbles as serious problems and reasons for not believing. I was a christian until 21 years of age. Then I realized that Christianity was a mental trap. You may believe your mind is open, but as long as you believe the bible, your mind is closed, because from your perspective, there is only one answer to everything: God. Don't try to deny that, it's a fundamental part of christianity that God is the absolute truth and good. And God is always right, and anything that says otherwise or anything different is always wrong. It's the kind of thinking that allows people like GWB to manipulate the population. If you can convince people that God is with you, you can get them to support you unwaveringly because you don't want to go against God, do you? It's ridiculously simplistic and very dangerous. So I have to say that if there is a God, it's not the Christian faith that points you to it. Nor the Islamic version, because that religion suffers from the same problem, as does the Jewish faith. Religion is bad, people. It may unify, but it also closes people's minds off in very absurd and often exploitable ways. It limits us as human beings, narrows us and has a long history of blinding us to the truth while making us believe that it's opening us to the truth. That's probably why if there is a creator, he/she/it stays out of sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 And God is always right' date=' and anything that says otherwise or anything different is always wrong.[/quote'] Yes, and one of the other problems with that is that people can't seem to all agree about what God's opinions are about what's right and what's wrong. If you can convince people that God is with you, you can get them to support you unwaveringly because you don't want to go against God, do you? Precisely. That's probably why if there is a creator, he/she/it stays out of sight. Could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Ban All RELIGON wars stop no religous fanatics no Holy wars the world will be a better place now, thats really - hm, naive. let me see, you think atheists dont kill people and wage wars? did you forget (learn in school) communism in russia? millions died. and hitler - he was a nazi. again; millions died. eliminating religion and belivers wouldnt solve your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Relax, don't bite the flamebait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 sorry, it just sliped out :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 in basics I think somewhat in terms of Pascal's Wager.. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ That site has more detail about it than I've ever seen on the topic! Allow me to summarize the wager, as it was taught to me as a first year philosophy student: -If you believe in God, and God exists, you go to heaven. -If you believe in God, and God doesn't exist, nothing happens when you die. -If you do not believe in God, and God doesn't exist, nothing happens when you die. -If you do not believe in God, and God exists, you will go to hell and burn forever. So basicly pascal's wager says that because of what the different possible outcomes are, it's a safer bet to be a believer. Personally I see this as an appeal to fear. Besides, the Christian/Atheist dichotomy viewset is only a narrow take of what the possibilities are, so Pascal's wager only works from a certain perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 -If you believe in God, and God doesn't exist, nothing happens when you die. -If you do not believe in God, and God doesn't exist, nothing happens when you die. Not necessarily nothing. There could be something else based on something other than a deity. -If you do not believe in God, and God exists, you will go to hell and burn forever. Not in all faiths. . . . it's a safer bet to be a believer. Well, since nobody gets out of life alive, neither way seems all that safe to me. Besides, the Christian/Atheist dichotomy viewset is only a narrow take of what the possibilities are, . . . I tend to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedrtim Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 In a two dimensional universe' date=' a three dimensional man would be a god.[/quote'] Why is that? Because all of the one eyed men are busy being kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 The thing is NOBODY knows for certain' date=' . . .[/quote'] How do you know that nobody knows for certain? People who believe, believe they do. Yes but they are using their beliefs, im using logic, and deduction and NO one has the absolute answer to anything. I think thay said something like this on Doctor Who: "Logic merely allows us to be wrong, with authority." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Ban All RELIGON wars stop no religous fanatics no Holy wars the world will be a better place welll thats my opinion This reminded me of something. In the US a lot of people want to take all references to religion out of government, this started back in the sixties, they call it seperation of church and state. But, it will never happen and here is why. If you seperate church and state, then you cannot bring money into the government that comes from a religious source, therfore you can not tax people who make their living that way. Now if you can not tax that portion of the population then you have to increase taxes on everyone else. This will cause you to not get re-elected and therefore you will lose your income, prestige and power and who wants to give all that up? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 As a moderator I'm really getting tired of warning ppl about their conduct. If you don't believe in GOD...fine. You can say that...but watch the way you say it! I'm getting PMs about this thread. If it doesn't stop I'm going to lock it. Remember, we all have OUR OWN opinions. Respect each and be excellent to each other!!! Re-read the posting rules if you have any questions. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 You're getting PM's from the ppl who do believe about the ppl who don't believe? I'm a believer and I say, "turn the other cheek." Someone calling me names because they don't agree with me doesn't bother me in the least. Oh, and if you do believe and are calling the ppl who don't believe names I'd like to ask, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 As a moderator I'm really getting tired of warning ppl about their conduct. If you don't believe in GOD...fine. You can say that...but watch the way you say it! I'm getting PMs about this thread. If it doesn't stop I'm going to lock it. Remember' date=' we all have OUR OWN opinions. Respect each and be excellent to each other!!![/b'] Re-read the posting rules if you have any questions. c4 B) Have you actually read through this topic? I've only noticed two inflamatory posts and they are both on this page. That's far far less than a lot of threads that never even get sent to Rura Penthe. I think it's just a simple matter of this being a sensitive issue for a lot of people and they just can't take it, so they complain. So maybe you just should close the thread if people can't handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 So basicly pascal's wager says that because of what the different possible outcomes are' date=' it's a safer bet to be a believer. Personally I see this as an appeal to fear. Besides, the Christian/Atheist dichotomy viewset is only a narrow take of what the possibilities are, so Pascal's wager only works from a certain perspective.[/quote'] true :) but I dont see it as an appeal to fear but more like a guideline to apropriate conuduct (10 commandment as generic template). we have a free wil so its your choice how you gonna implement it by waging good and bad deeds. what I find interestig (waging good and bad deeds) - egyptians have in their mithology also a scale whic has on one end the feather of thruth and on the other your heart. if your sins prevail and the heart does sink towards the bottom - well its bad, you dont get the paradise. I find this "perspective" most common in all mithologies & religions so I thats why bet on it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 The thing is NOBODY knows for certain' date=' . . .[/quote'] How do you know that nobody knows for certain? People who believe, believe they do. Yes but they are using their beliefs, im using logic, and deduction and NO one has the absolute answer to anything. I think thay said something like this on Doctor Who: "Logic merely allows us to be wrong, with authority." Hee hee. Good one. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StitchInTime Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I find interestig (waging good and bad deeds) - egyptians have in their mithology also a scale whic has on one end the feather of thruth and on the other your heart. if your sins prevail and the heart does sink towards the bottom - well its bad' date=' you dont get the paradise. I find this "perspective" most common in all mithologies & religions so I thats why bet on it :)[/quote'] A belief that the earth was flat used to be 'most common,' too. The fact that a lot of people agree on something doesn't make it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamODell Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I dont belive in god, i think it was made up just 2 control ppl but it seems too have failed in alot of cases. like Napoleon Bonaparte said "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." & "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." i think the universe is just far far more complex than we can even imagin their is no way too explain it with our very basic scienctific knowlege so some ppl just think of god as real, some ppl i know seem 2 think we know everything already lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 A belief that the earth was flat used to be 'most common' date='' too. The fact that a lot of people agree on something doesn't make it so.[/quote'] its a repeating mithology not a middle age claim - what Im trying to say is that mithology was not written on/by fact(s) that a lot of people agree on something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 ... same fallacy. Just because a lot of people support something, whether it's a 'middle age claim' or a 'repeating mithology [sic]', does NOT make it true. Truth requires a lot more than just common acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 its not "true" its a wager - like I was saying before. edit: and let me say one important fact - god cannot be prooved or dissprooved by science right now so I really dont see any point in trying proof any of this claims with empiric science anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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