Ulysses Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 nice to actually have a debate without it getting nasty hehe well done guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 haha, it does get heated at times. at least for me. its a bit frustrating trying to find facts about the feelings i have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philly Posted November 24, 2005 Author Share Posted November 24, 2005 Keep it up GhostShadow, ive seen your posts and uve defended it like mad. A lot of others have been giving you a run fer ure money. I'm suprised its turned out this well so far.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taleitha Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Personally I believe that this whole "war on terror" was partially an excuse to go after some oil and partially Bush Jnr tying to finish off the war that his Daddy started way back when (see: First Gulf War). I wish John Howard (PM of AU) would take his head out of Bush's rear-end, give it a good rinse off, and realise that the new work-place reforms he has brought in were effluent trying to escape Bush's ass.... *ahem* next topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Dead prisoners and deceptive headlines.French trade weapons ok now this one says that they might actualy be trading pardons, but read it. it will make one wonder about the french. It feels good to outlaw tourture Why Alqeada has lost the war in Iraq. Special forces #1) All your information is coming from the same source. BIG red flag. #2) A quick glance at the subject matter of the numerous ads the people who run the site have chosen to display will reveal that it is far from impartial. That's just the ads; I haven't even gotten into the content of the articles! I just can't believe that anyone other than a millitaristic zealot would buy this stuff. One glance at any page is enough to make me dismiss it out of hand. If you really would like that I get into detail over this stuff, I will. But I just can't see that any time should be spent on what appears to be an obviously discreditable source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 it may come from the same sorce but like a news paper it has diffrent author's. You see, that is a site about war... that is why i chooes to get my info about war from there, particualry this war. There is a special section on that site that say "War on terror" and "war in Iraq" They have many difrent articals in there by many diffrnet author's. It is like a newspaper on the web about any spectific subject. so if you prefer to get your info from one sided blogs, be my guest. You will only limit your knowlage on a subject. And i wouldnt dismiss a site for the adds it runs... It is a site devoted to military, may it be military infromation, military intel, military games, or military rumors... (i hope your picking up on the theme of military here....) So of cource its gonna be military adds... (Speaking of zelots, i just played a good game of StarCraft. GO PROTOSS!!! whoop :P lol ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 They have many difrent articals in there by many diffrnet author's. It is like a newspaper on the web about any spectific subject. so if you prefer to get your info from one sided blogs' date=' be my guest. You will only limit your knowlage on a subject.[/quote'] But what you fail to appreciate is the fact that even newspapers have editorial policies and a tone that affects their content. I bet if you googled it, you could find another website, with articles and such from different authors and still all dealing with war. All it would take would be for you to include the word "pacificism" in your search terms and you would find a VERY different set of views on war. And you would have to agree that from your perspective such a website would be hardly objective. And I have had a look at that website of yours, and in all honestly you must admit that its greatest concern is more militarism than any attempt at an impartial analysis of war and the reason's it is waged. You also mentioned that you find it hard to find facts to support the feelings you have. If I can be so bold, I'd like to make a couple of suggestions on that count. Firstly, could the reason it's such a struggle to find the facts to justify your position, be because those facts really are few and far between? Secondly, and I feel this is much more important as a question of intellectual integrity, it truely is dangerous to adopt a position and then try to find reasons to back that up. Truth and knowledge and science are not achieved by picking and choosing the data that matches your your ideas and theories. Rather, your understanding should extend from the available evidence. That is to say, look first at the facts and evidence first AND then find an appropriate analysis that works with the knowledge you've gained. Anyhow GhostShadow, I'm at least glad that you're taking an interest rather than simply being all apathetic about the problems and politics of our day. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 So if you prefer to get your info from one sided blogs' date=' be my guest. You will only limit your knowlage on a subject.[/quote'] Honestly, I don't read blogs. But it's interesting you should bring them up. Many bloggers have a proven history of exposing treachery in the media. A quick search for gannon daily show produces this video clip: http://homepage.mac.com/onegoodmove/movies/ds021605bloggers.html And big suprise, a blogger is hosting it. Now, I won't vouch for the credibility of that blog because I haven't read it. But my point is that you can't just categorically dismiss things like you're doing with your statement about blogs. What you do as a responsible person looking at any news is CHECK THE FACTS, and gather information from more than one source. If you don't, people like Guckert will run your life and you won't even know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azuro Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 MY AMERICA by petty officer Azuro amarica...... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamarica...... hmmm.... how many lives have perrished... how many soldiers were killed... YOU.... invade... ... and you give lame excauses... until even "jihad" seems to be useless... native... homeless... YOU... invade... ... and u let ISRAEL aslo invade... what free world... free to be conqured... you want everything... gas... land... gold pressed latinum... YOU are ferenggi! YOU take what u want! YOU are borg! every body has to follow you as ally... YOU are species 8427... you are heartless... YOU are Xindi... u want to destroy other peoples home YOU are Romulan... you cannot be trusted... YOU are dominion! you give drugs to the young ones... YOU are klingon... you make CNN exegerate the war effort... YOU are The house of DURAS! you are without honor! YOU are... america...... why? Why?? WHY????????????? oh... my america... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quosego Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Well that's also a bit one-sided... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 They have many difrent articals in there by many diffrnet author's. It is like a newspaper on the web about any spectific subject. so if you prefer to get your info from one sided blogs' date=' be my guest. You will only limit your knowlage on a subject.[/quote'] But what you fail to appreciate is the fact that even newspapers have editorial policies and a tone that affects their content. I bet if you googled it, you could find another website, with articles and such from different authors and still all dealing with war. All it would take would be for you to include the word "pacificism" in your search terms and you would find a VERY different set of views on war. And you would have to agree that from your perspective such a website would be hardly objective. And I have had a look at that website of yours, and in all honestly you must admit that its greatest concern is more militarism than any attempt at an impartial analysis of war and the reason's it is waged. You also mentioned that you find it hard to find facts to support the feelings you have. If I can be so bold, I'd like to make a couple of suggestions on that count. Firstly, could the reason it's such a struggle to find the facts to justify your position, be because those facts really are few and far between? Secondly, and I feel this is much more important as a question of intellectual integrity, it truely is dangerous to adopt a position and then try to find reasons to back that up. Truth and knowledge and science are not achieved by picking and choosing the data that matches your your ideas and theories. Rather, your understanding should extend from the available evidence. That is to say, look first at the facts and evidence first AND then find an appropriate analysis that works with the knowledge you've gained. Anyhow GhostShadow, I'm at least glad that you're taking an interest rather than simply being all apathetic about the problems and politics of our day. B) haha, yeah. Most 16 year olds at my school think that this stuff is boring, i guess somehting is wronge w/ me :p well i am looking for more infromation than who sold weapons to who, or why America invaded Iraq, i know this stuff. I have seen you guys post this infromation and i have seen more about it on the web. I will tell you something. I KNOW that America is over there for more than just Iraqi Freedom, but that is a large reason to why we are over there. the people there fight under the same flag as the people who attacked us. And about the oil, that is strickley economic and military intrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 MY AMERICA by petty officer Azuro amarica...... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamarica...... hmmm.... how many lives have perrished... how many soldiers were killed... YOU.... invade... ... and you give lame excauses... until even "jihad" seems to be useless... native... homeless... YOU... invade... ... and u let ISRAEL aslo invade... what free world... free to be conqured... you want everything... gas... land... gold pressed latinum... YOU are ferenggi! YOU take what u want! YOU are borg! every body has to follow you as ally... YOU are species 8427... you are heartless... YOU are Xindi... u want to destroy other peoples home YOU are Romulan... you cannot be trusted... YOU are dominion! you give drugs to the young ones... YOU are klingon... you make CNN exegerate the war effort... YOU are The house of DURAS! you are without honor! YOU are... america...... why? Why?? WHY????????????? oh... my america... This will be fun muhahahahah.. :P You often say "YOU" in there... so i will break a cardinal rule and assume that you are not American. That you are looking from this in an out side view. And givin that you have stated no evidence to go along w/ your...unusual pome... is it a pome..? I will say that this make you look like an idiot. (Disclimer: I am not calling you an Idiot, just saying that you sound like on as of now until you post why this is not true). I will tell you how many bloody lives have perrished, OVER 3,000 IN ONE FCUKING DAY!!!!! 9-11 We invaded?? wtf dude.. they invaded us first. they invaded our safty, our home, they invaded our right to live in peace. they brought this upon themselves my friend. They started this and we will sure as hell finish it. We give lame excusses... you see this is why I Fing hate the UN, if it where up to me i think that America should drop the UN leave it and let it rot. I dont think America should justify this war to anyone, b/c if we have to explain it.... then you will never understand. This is a free world. You are free to do what you want, but if you are gonna attack America, you better be ready b/c it we are not just gonna roll over and die. We will come back at you w/ a force so powerful that it could easily be mistaken for the wraith of god. We only want one thing, to be left alone. You honestly think that America loves to go out and cause war, to make ppl think like we are jackasses? you think that we like sending our young men and wemon to foign land to die? if you do then you are even more dillusional then I thought. We force NO ONE to be our ally, they see the econimic beifits and the military benifits and become our ally. they could just as easily be China's, Russia's, or Iran's. You see, if we wanted ppl to be our ally they would be. But obviously not every one is. We could be like Nazi Germany and start Genocide, but we dont. You know why?? BECAUSE WE ARE NOT THE EVIL TYRANTS YOU PROTRAY US AS! We are heartless?? wtf, during natrual disaters America is always giving money, if i am not mistaken, during the tsunami America gave more money than every one else combined. WE give AIDS relief to Africa, and if we where truly heartless... we would have left sudamn in power. so stfu dude, think b 4 you sepak. oh yeah, America gets its afternoon jollies by burning down our neihboors home... wha... ghaaaaa are you insane?? i think that you need some meds or something dude. You think that we went to Iraq to burn down their homes?? OMG, you really are insane. We can not be trusted?? to me it sounds like you should not be trusted w/ safty scissors... we have no honor?.... i am just gonna shut up now b 4 i say something Unkind.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 GhostShadow... you've finally forced my hand. Today, you will learn just how wrong you are. Have you been paying attention at all? You've got to stop spewing this crap out. If you don't want to sit through the following summary, skip ahead to the links. Go ahead, the information contained there is vitally important for you to read. The common american doesn't want war. We have to be SOLD on the idea of war, it has to be justified. This is where propaganda comes in, but it is not enough. We need a Pearl Harbor type event for us to want to go to war and give up our freedoms. 9/11 - Who did it benefit? Not us. Not the terrorists either! It benefited industry. Industry. INDUSTRY. That's the bottom line. For the love of money is the root of all evil. Now what is happening? The american economy is being looted from the inside, the afghani and iraqi economys have been handed to american interests and their rule is being enforced by our military. That is what makes america bad to the rest of the world. Not it's citizens, but the powerful greedy bastards that have literally hijacked our country. We have been fooled so badly! You're fighting the wrong fight, GhostShadow. The enemy is not them, it's our own leaders and captains of industry. Terrorists didn't even carry out 9/11. If you doubt that, oh BOY is there a mountain of evidence. It's not just some theory. Stuff like this has been planned by our government before, and even declassified. Here are four separate sources I came up with in under 30 seconds: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/ www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html www.public-action.com/911/northwds.html And that's just for starters. You want more, I've got more. See for yourself, GhostShadow. Wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Terrorists didn't even carry out 9/11. If you doubt that' date=' oh BOY is there a mountain of evidence. It's not just some theory.[/quote'] While I suspect Arktis that I'm closer to you than GhostShadow on a lot of these issues... I have to say, accusing the US government of organising the September 11 attacks themselves, well that's a pretty serious allegation to make - and one which I think many Americans might find offensive. Just because we have evidence of the Northwoods proposals, doesn't mean 9/11 was just as dodgy. I really do need to call you on this, if you don't mind - so I'd really appreciate it if you could share any support you have for this claim. Personally, I believe that there exists evidence that various US Security services were aware of a probable threat of terrorist attack at that time. So I'm more inclined to to think that if indeed there was a conspiracy, that it's more likely that it would have been the case that such consprirators would simply have let the attacks take place - . In any case, I find the proposition highly conjectural and so yeah, that's why I need to see more before I'm swayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 well i am looking for more infromation than who sold weapons to who' date=' or why America invaded Iraq, i know this stuff. I have seen you guys post this infromation and i have seen more about it on the web.[/quote'] If you can hold of it (it had a VERY short print run) I reccomend reading "Profits of War" by Ari Ben-Menashe. It deals with issues somewhat before the Iraq war and the current war on terrorism, but it does give you a masssive insight into what goes on. You see, it was written by a former MOSSAD agent who feared for his life becuase of the fact that he knew too much. He decided that the easiest way to change that fact would be to write EVERYTHING he knew and experienced in MOSSAD and publish it, thereby removing the reason for his termination. It's a fascinating read. Deals with secret weapons deals, with Iraq, with Iran, and even the Achille Lauro terrorist incident - which he says was faked by Israel to discredit the PLO. As I say, the print run was cut short, somewhat suspiciously you could say... it's not the sort of book that many of the powers that be, wanted people to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beawulf Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 We force NO ONE to be our ally, they see the econimic beifits and the military benifits and become our ally. Well actually...back up till 1975 Australia's PM was Gough Whitlam, he did alot for the people of this country. He removed university fees, abolished the remnants of the 'white australia' policy, introduced free health care for everyone, mandated equal opportunities for women in government... At around 1975 the lease on American bases in the country were up for renewal (or cancellation) inparticular the CIA base at pine gap. Pine Gap base is one of Americas largest and most important intelligence bases, and is used for sattelite and missile tracking, and has become the frontline base in the star wars program. At the time the CIA was giving funds to the opposition leaders and the governer general to get them in their back pocket because America was concerned about their interests while we had a left government in power. Information was being leaked about CIA activities at the base, the spying on Australians and the PM, and America wasnt honouring its agreement to shareintelligence gathered at the base. The CIA became concerned Gough Whitlam was going to cancel the lease and demand the base closed. To cut a long story short, at this point the CIA and the opposition leader (who had the CIA agent in-charge of Pine Gap staying with him) pressured the governer general to dismiss Gough Whitlam which he did*. The opposition then took power, the lease at Pine Gap was renewed. America has successfully overthrown our government. So.....I dispute your comment that America doesnt force anyone to be its ally. * under an archaic part of the constitution, the Governer General, who is appointed by the Queen, is able to dismiss the Prime Minister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 To cut a long story short' date=' at this point the CIA and the opposition leader (who had the CIA agent in-charge of Pine Gap staying with him) pressured the governer general to dismiss Gough Whitlam which he did. The opposition then took power, the lease at Pine Gap was renewed. America has successfully overthrown our government.[/quote'] You do realise that if this can be actually proven, that this renders any lease/law/action/... that had benefits for the US, invalid. In other words, you could force them at any time you'd like. If it can't be proven, than the rule of innocent until proven guilty applies and what you say here is just rumour. Now, I do realise that things happen in the world that can't be really proven after the fact, especially with things concerning intelligence opperations. Most nations however hold themselves to the rule of innocent until proven guilty, the US seems to be a country that doesn't follow this rule for everybody/everything: see prisoners in Guantanamo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 “.....I dispute your comment that America doesnt force anyone to be its ally.†You dispute this fact - I dispute your grasp on the concept of force. Economic incentive, which is precisely what I was speaking of when I said that leaders SEE a benefit in it for them to be our allies. Did we hold a gun to their heads - or did we offer them incentive? The very difference between these is a very fundamental concept - once which I realize you fail to grasp. You can sit there, and tell me that you don’t like the outcome of the alliance, I will sit here and tell you that the alliance was not forced. “We have been fooled so badly! You're fighting the wrong fight, GhostShadow. The enemy is not them, it's our own leaders and captains of industry.†I could sit here and argue with you for days about why communism is not a viable option. Yet it seems that you will not be satiated until it is instituted within this country. I understand that people who feel so strongly about two different economic institutions will never agree - there is obviously a fundamental difference that is driven by such passion, that it would be unwise, if not impossible for me to try to convince you to believe otherwise. There is however, no need for me to do so, as my argument is not based on the behavior of the “Robber Barons.†Instead, I rest my argument on the fact that generalizations such as these are in fact at fault. Not hate, not corruption - generalizations. I know that not all “Muslim†people are evil - and yet I find myself constantly defending “Americansâ€ÂÂ. As if one person could speak for the whole - a vast misconception. I’m not attempting to speak for the good of all Americans, I understand that aspects of our government are corrupt. But where you are wrong, is when you speak as if you fail to understand that the institution of government itself is corrupt - not a specific government itself. (BTW, Do you drive a Subaru?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 “the US seems to be a country that doesn't follow this rule for everybody/everything: see prisoners in Guantanamo.†When I hear about prisoners being “treated unfairly†and “tortured†in Guantanemo... you know what I think about? I think about Nick Berg - and how his head was slowly cut off with a dull rusty blade while he was still alive. I wonder why you feel justified in standing up for the kind of people who hide behind the very fact that they have no infrastructure - I wonder why you care only what the United States does to torture these TERRORISTS while you make no comment on the disgusting, cowardly acts of the terrorists themselves? I understand that accountability is necessary - I merely wonder how you can so blatantly contradict yourself - and not realize it. You speak of this “rule†as if it were the Golden Rule - a mutual reciprocation of actions. I wonder, then, why you feel it necessary for the United States to explicitly label these prisoners “POW’s†when they, themselves, have failed to affiliate with any such infrastructure... when they themselves do not abide by the Geneva Convention (did not sign it...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 to be honest i dont bloody care about the detainees in cuba, the only trouble is we should of done the same to the IRA which has been a bloody joke, then we have MP's like gerry adams and george galloway who also should be sent to cuba and not having a seat in our parliment...better still line them up and shot them both side by side with sadam hussain and osman bin laden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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