Arktis Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 What I'm trying to determine is where exactly is the line between simply tolerating (read: puting up with something you don't like) or having respect. Is it possible to not respect a person's beliefs but still respect them? Some would argue that beliefs make the person and therefore you have to respect the beliefs in order to respect the person. I think it's far less simplistic than that. Also, is it necessary to lie in the name of getting along? In either case, is it an ethical choice to lie (or even to not lie) in the name of getting along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Depends upon the beliefs. I can not respect someone who is a KKK member. I will avoid them & not talk to them. But someone who is, say, a Wicca. Whatever. I'll still go out to dinner with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 What I'm trying to determine is where exactly is the line between simply tolerating (read: puting up with something you don't like) or having respect. imo the line is quite easily drawn: depending on the other persons toleration, they will be shown respect. example: I'd respect someone's belief in extra-terrestrials, since this person doesn't harm anyone else by believing this. I wouldn't respect someones belief in superiority of certain races over others, since the person who beliefs this is harming others, even if it is as harmless as hurting others feelings, but I could still tolerate this belief. Once it gets personal, then even my toleration will dissapear (nobody is entirely objective). Is it possible to not respect a person's beliefs but still respect them? Some would argue that beliefs make the person and therefore you have to respect the beliefs in order to respect the person. I think it's far less simplistic than that. For me that depends on how adamant this person is in believing/spreading his beliefs and how tolerant he/she him/herself is of opposite views. Also for me, there are different levels of respect. I don't respect someone or not, I could also respect someone a little for example, or a lot... Also' date=' is it necessary to lie in the name of getting along? In either case, is it an ethical choice to lie (or even to not lie) in the name of getting along?[/quote'] This depends on the definition of a lie. Is not telling the entire truth a lie? Keeping certain parts for yourself and so on... If so, then definately: yes. If you allways bluntly speak your mind without considering others feelings, you will not 'get along'! I'd dare say that in many cases that is a fact, but then again, it is also dependant on the personalities of the people involved. If not, then: no. You shouldn't have to tell someone that you find one thing, while in fact you really think something entirely different. But the line that is drawn, is most likely different for everybody... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I can tolerate other peoples beliefs until their beliefs start to encroach upon my own. That is where I draw the line I wont let people walk all over me. I once worked (ha ha) in office where a Muslim girl complained to a line manager because another girl had a small pink plastic model of Winnie the Poohs Piglet sitting on her monitor...........and you know what Piglet had to go. When will this sort of sillyness end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 What's wrong with Piglet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I have very few beliefs myself - i beleive science created the Galaxy and all that. I will tolerate other beliefes but it does annoy me when people use there beliefes as an excuse to cause harm to someone or commit some other kind of crime. If someones belief affects someone else in a bad way then i won't tollerate it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 i beleive science created the Galaxy and all that.Hahaha! I know what you're talking about, but you used the wrong word there, buddy. Pretty funny. :cyclops: Science never created anything; it's a philosophy for lack of a better term on my part. ;) But I know you know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 tolerance has nothing to do with beliefs imo - you can be whatever you want (muslim, atheist, budhist..) and be tolerant or not. so in this case it all comes down to your definition of tolerance by this parameters: 1. Your leeway for variation from a standard. 2. The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent. Im trying to set a guide limit somewhere in this area: try to treat others as you would want them to treat you and do onto others as you would wish them do onto you. here are some "Ethic of Reciprocity" passages from the religious texts of various religions and secular beliefs: Brahmanism: "This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 Buddhism: "...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353 Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18 Christianity: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version. Confucianism: "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23 Hinduism: "One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself." Mencius Vii.A.4 "This is the sum of the Dharma [duty]: do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517 Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." Jainism: "In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara Judaism: "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18 Shinto: "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form" Taoism: "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien. Zoroastrianism: "That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5 "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29 basically they all tell us the same thing. until you dont recognize that, you are blind (now that last sentence is my own saying;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str82u Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Tolerance to me is just not taking what YOU say seriously. ...or myself for that matter.... By the way, this was the one that got the bump for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 i try not to look at groups of people but simply attempt to accept an individual as they are. not religion, or faith or sexuality, just an individual with their feelings and independance. ...but i try and accept people on a practical level. not an idealistic level where the interactions i have are essentially contrived and expectant. eg i can accept a jewish person and expect them to act a certain way because of their faith.......they are only a person, not a living embodiment of a religion or whatever. accepting thats individuals have their freedom and independance, and feelings that go along with that, i also acknowledge my own and try to be fair on myself. i dont like standards which are so ideal that they dont seem real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 ...but i try and accept people on a practical level. not an idealistic level where the interactions i have are essentially contrived and expectant. eg i can accept a jewish person and expect them to act a certain way because of their faith.......they are only a person' date=' not a living embodiment of a religion or whatever.[/quote'] That true, but at the same time, if a person explains that they are an orthodox jew, or a devout Greek Orthodox, if you do have a body of experience with others of a like persuasion, it can give you some idea of some of the characteristics or background of that person. For example, if a fourth generation Australian tells me he's Irish & Catholic, I know it's a fair bet that his grandparents voted labor. And if a girl I'm dating tells me she's greek orthodox, I know it's a fair bet that her dad's protective as all hell and that her mum can whip up a mean lamb roast. I know these are stereotypes, but as stereotypes they continue to have currency for a reason. I'm hoping I'm making sense here... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 ...but i try and accept people on a practical level. not an idealistic level where the interactions i have are essentially contrived and expectant. eg i can accept a jewish person and expect them to act a certain way because of their faith.......they are only a person' date=' not a living embodiment of a religion or whatever.[/quote'] That true, but at the same time, if a person explains that they are an orthodox jew, or a devout Greek Orthodox, if you do have a body of experience with others of a like persuasion, it can give you some idea of some of the characteristics or background of that person. For example, if a fourth generation Australian tells me he's Irish & Catholic, I know it's a fair bet that his grandparents voted labor. And if a girl I'm dating tells me she's greek orthodox, I know it's a fair bet that her dad's protective as all hell and that her mum can whip up a mean lamb roast. I know these are stereotypes, but as stereotypes they continue to have currency for a reason. I'm hoping I'm making sense here... ;) perfect sense. and i agree with you. but as a place to start i will stick with what i said. the girl across the street from my dads house (where i used to live) has been raised a catholic but has lost interest in her faith. she feels let down and a little marginalised by her family. thing is, had i not been told that i would have assumed much based on her faith alone. and your last statement echoes something i have been saying for years. stereotypes exist cos theyre right a lot of the time, they just dont promote individuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 What's wrong with Piglet? Maybe it has to do with the fact they don't eat pork? c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 What's wrong with Piglet? Maybe it has to do with the fact they don't eat pork? c4 B) I belive that it has more to do with depicting an animal in this case. Islam has this specific regulation - no depicting of animals, people, faces etc. mainly to avoid idolatry but some people are very strict.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 So if your a Muslim your not allowed to own plastic action figures? My point wasnt the fact that Muslims are offended by pigs but to point out why should that other girl have be forced to give up her model piglet? Why was it so importnat for that Muslim girl to be paying attention to what the other girl was doing? And why should that none Muslim girl who does not share the same beliefs conform to a religion alien to her? I am not a Muslim and refuse to take on board their beliefs because that is my choice and my human right. Tolerance is one thing...........but changeing my way of life so as to not offend others is another. As long as I break no laws of the land what is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 So if your a Muslim your not allowed to own plastic action figures? My point wasnt the fact that Muslims are offended by pigs but to point out why should that other girl have be forced to give up her model piglet? Im explaining the basic guideline here but every person is interpreting his own vision - in islam you are resposible for yourself and that can sometimes lead to extremes (as in any other beliefs and convictions people have). I know many more "flexible" muslims and they act acordnigly what they belive is aceptable. and I think they dont mind piglest on the monitors of other people ;) I dont belive that muslims are offended by pigs - they just dont eat them :) as for that muslim girl - if she was also praying in that room, that would be a problem I suppose (as I explained before, no depictions of animals or people are allowed at prayer site).. edit: it all comes down to individuals at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 To quote Jules (and Vincent, Pulp Fiction): Vincent: Want some Bacon? Jules: No man, I don't eat pork! Vincent: You Jewish? Jules: No, I ain't Jewish. I don't dig on swine, that's all. Vincent: Why not? Jules: Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals. Vincent: Yeah, but bacon tastes good! Pork choppes taste good! Jules: Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know, 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfuckers! Pigs sleep and root in shit! That's a filthy animal. I ain't eating nothing that ain't got sense enough to disregard it's own faeces. Vincent: How about a dog? A dog eats its own faeces. Jules: I don't eat dog either... Vincent: ... Ya, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy. But it's definately dirty. But,.., a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way. Vincent: Eah, so by that rational', 'f a pig has a better personality, he'd cease to be a filthy animal! Is that true? Jules: Wel, we'd have to be talking 'bout one charming motherfucking pig! I mean, he had to be ten times more charming than that ar... on Green Acres, ya know what I'm saying... I like to eat well prepared pig btw... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveng Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 What's wrong with Piglet? I belive that it has more to do with depicting an animal in this case. Islam has this specific regulation - no depicting of animals' date=' people, faces etc. mainly to avoid idolatry but some people are very strict..[/quote'] That doesn't give a Muslim the right to tell *other* non-Muslims not to have plastic figures of Pooh Bear or Piglet at their desk. Doesn't religion teach anything about tolerating non-believers? I would have told the Muslim coworker it's MY desk, not hers, so bugger off. troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateya Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I would have told the Muslim coworker it's MY desk, not hers, so bugger off. troy you say a lot fo people to "bugger off" :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 in a workplace geared for westerners i would (as an employer) make a rule which was applicable to everyone. as a last resort it seems the fairest way, although slightly punitive i.e. that work is work and desk ornamentation is to be kept to a minimum. other than that i would ask the person with the piglet how they felt about the complaint and whether they were happy to make a little effort to respect the others belief withj no expectation of a positive outcome. additionally i would speak to the offended party and find out whether she/he felt the statue had to be gone or simply out of sight. i would hope that people are mature enough to not take it personally and find ways to agree rather than disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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