Tenebrae Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Things are obviously escalating - but what is worse. Syria and Iran recently signed a mutual defence treaty. I'm fairly sure I don't need to draw you a diagram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garth Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 If its worry you are after and indeed there is cause for concern think of your gas price going up in the holiday season and that you have one side with nukes and the other with chemical weapons (the poor mans nuke) neither of whom have signed up to international law. It must be comforting to know that one side has American weapons and the other Chinese, Iranian weapons thus potentially a veto wielding member of the UN for both sides. Indeed a big worry for us all but as usual neither side will back down from what we have seen so far...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Yep, things are really going to crap in the Middle East, and it doesn't look like there's anything anyone can do without stepping in unilaterally because, as garth mentioned, a vetoing member on both sides of the conflict = regardless of what it wants to do, the UN will be blocked from interfering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 What makes it worse is that nearly every Christian in the world thinks this is basicly Armageddon. And I'm pretty sure the Muslims and the Jews do, too. I refer you to this topic. Basicly, I'm saying that this is a huge problem because like somewhere around 80% of the planet believes in the Apocalypse and that it is the divine will of God, and because of that nobody is going to have much of a chance do a damn thing to stop the violence. :mad: Can we figure something out, guys? I mean, I know people have been wrestling with this one for years and years, but at this point, we might as well at least try to think of something constructive even if we know it's totally futile... I've been discussing this with friends and family for a while now already, and so far, as anyone would guess... there's not really any obvious solution. Now if Husto were here, he'd probably say something like "It's the secret cabal of international time-traveling jew-bots from the future!". Man, I could use a good laugh right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Personally... I think that the rest of the world should back out of this and let it run it's course. The whole problem is... Lebanon won't do anything about the terrorists they've got in their country, and Palestine's government can't do anything about, well, anything. Israel's stuck between a rock and a hard place... all of the options it has are bad. If it releases terrorists in order to get it's soldiers back, that'll be seen as a way to get people back, and soldiers / civillians will continue to be kidnapped and ransomed (i.e. like it is). If they do nothing, the terrorists'll see it as weakness and step up on the attacks. That leaves attacking them as a demonstration that they won't tolerate the attacks (i.e. what they're doing now), and we're about to see how THAT'll work out over the next few years. That's what's so terrible about the situation in the Middle East... there doesn't seem to be ANY positive route out unless countries like Lebanon get rid of their terrorists, and the Palestinians muzzle the militant aspects of their populace. Pity that neither is likely to happen at all, ever. The only route is the route Israel is taking now... and it's not a good one by any stretch of the imagination. Edit: Yeah, Christians like their apocalypse... they've were screaming 'End of Days' for every major war since it was founded, and every millenia just for the heck of it. I just hope nobody manages to make sure the 'prophecy' is fulfilled... armageddon is one prophecy that doesn't need fulfilling. -_-' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 The time-traveling jew-bots from the future were wiped out in the time war. Nothing good is going to happen in Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garth Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Personally... I think that the rest of the world should back out of this and let it run it's course. The whole problem is... Lebanon won't do anything about the terrorists they've got in their country' date=' and Palestine's government can't do anything about, well, [i']anything[/i]. Agreed perhaps if the Americans stopped supplying money and F16s to Israel all weapons were taken away and hand to hand combat was the only means of fighting things would calm down and there would be a lot less deaths. The sight of dead & injured Children on the TV doesn't make me proud. Also if the unguided missiles fired by the other side and weapons & technology were taken away less would happen, we all know that is unlikely to happen. The likeliehood that the lebanese governement can do anything effective against Hezbollah is unlikely as Hezbollah has more weapons than the lebanese governemnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Irael is the only democratic country in the middel east thats Aemricas ally so I dont think we should totaly take away every thing we have givin them, but I do think that we need to see what happens. as of now every one is assuming alot of stuff about the other guy. I think America should use every diplomatic means at its disposel to prevent these freaks from getting nukes, but if they get nukes and they use them agianst america.. they sure as hell better hit us hard. I personaly am not scared of Iran, or its nuclear threat, but I know that if they nuke us, or attack us, they are the ones who are gonna be shjting their pants. With the Korean threat, Japan's most pacifist citizens are calling for arms. If this is another world war we are talking about, and it easly could be, there is going to be hell to pay. America has been feeding Japan's military weapons and teks. And since this new war with israel and Lebanon, America has sent massive captial to aid the war, along with weaons and missel systems and are selling palnes to them at an all time low. America has also sent several aircraft carriers down near Lebanon and are preparing for conflict, as well as the Royal navy. BBC News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Oh boy... No offense, but it's people like you that really worry me with your jingoist "war is peace" philosophy. That kind of thinking is what got both WWI and WWII started. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 You'd think we would have clued in as a species that world wars are bad after the first two... if we really need a third, then there's probably not a lot of hope for us. -_-' If we really have to support anyone in the Middle East (i.e. if war is inevitable), the most logical option would have to be Israel. It IS the most stable nation there, and the country that's least likely to start causing trouble everywhere if it gets the upper hand. The other states in the neighborhood have shown that they can't be nice and run stable, terrorist-free nations. Palestine, at least, has something of an excuse (i.e. powerless government and constantly destabilized power structures). Lebanon and the others like it do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerina Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Agreed perhaps if the Americans stopped supplying money and F16s to Israel ???? Israel and believe me im not a big fan of the Country or it's isolationist policies, buys there own military hardware all weapons were taken away and hand to hand combat was the only means of fighting things would calm down and there would be a lot less deaths.What like the UFC :rolleyes: The sight of dead & injured Children on the TV doesn't make me proud. Also if the unguided missiles fired by the other side and weapons & technology were taken away less would happen, we all know that is unlikely to happen. The likeliehood that the lebanese governement can do anything effective against Hezbollah is unlikely as Hezbollah has more weapons than the lebanese governemnt. I agree with your analysis of Hezbollah that's spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garth Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Agreed perhaps if the Americans stopped supplying money and F16s to Israel ???? Israel and believe me im not a big fan of the Country or it's isolationist policies, buys there own military hardware Did I miss the other country that made F16s & gave billions of Dollars each year to Israel? please advise which other country does that? What like the UFC :rolleyes:perhaps if you don't approve of both sides having to fight hand to hand then Hezbollah should have guided weapons to take on Israel a plague on both their houses The sight of dead & injured Children on the TV doesn't make me proud. Also if the unguided missiles fired by the other side and weapons & technology were taken away less would happen, we all know that is unlikely to happen. The likeliehood that the lebanese governement can do anything effective against Hezbollah is unlikely as Hezbollah has more weapons than the lebanese governemnt. I agree with your analysis of Hezbollah that's spot on. you missed the point most of the children are Lebanese and it is apparent that Israel is rather selective in its requirement of countries obeying UN resolutions (in the context of Israels stated requirements to solve the problem) I didn't hear about them having gone back to their pre Arab/Israeli war borders as required by UN resolution perhaps the USA had adopted the empty chair on that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 The United States have clearly lost control over Israel. Bush keeps saying that he supports Israel's actions and so on, but I don't buy it. I just think there is not much he can do about it. So he pretends to go along with the latest Israeli madness in order to save face. Then again, who would listen to him after Afghanistan and Iraq? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyCell Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 ???? Israel and believe me im not a big fan of the Country or it's isolationist policies, buys there own military hardware wake up kido. america gives isreal 40 billion a year in military support alone. and unlike many other countries to which america gives military support, isreal has the freedom of spending 20 billion of that in any way they like without even telling the us government how they spent it. now we could argue for hours about what hezbollah's and hamas are doing but look at it this way, isreal has been stalling the declearation of a palstenian state for 50 years havent they learnt crap from the british\irish conflict. the only way to have peace is for palastenians to have a state. you cannot strip the palatenian govenrment of all authority and power and expect them to control thier people it is just illogical. about hizbollah ok i for one "an egyptian and a muslim" do think they go a bit overboard, but why is isreal ocuppying parts of lebanon since 1967, does the "securing our border argument" the isrealies keep using make any sence to anyone. has lebanon ever attacked isreal prior to 1967??? ok i consider my self intilligent and i know that alot of isreali people want peace, but can you blame arabs for not caring, every day hundreds of thier brothers "arabs see themselves as brothers in the same way europe and the US , canda and australia saw each other during WWII. GorunNova's post: Personally... I think that the rest of the world should back out of this and let it run it's course. The whole problem is... Lebanon won't do anything about the terrorists they've got in their country, and Palestine's government can't do anything about, well, anything. Israel's stuck between a rock and a hard place... all of the options it has are bad. If it releases terrorists in order to get it's soldiers back, that'll be seen as a way to get people back, and soldiers / civillians will continue to be kidnapped and ransomed (i.e. like it is). If they do nothing, the terrorists'll see it as weakness and step up on the attacks. That leaves attacking them as a demonstration that they won't tolerate the attacks (i.e. what they're doing now), and we're about to see how THAT'll work out over the next few years. That's what's so terrible about the situation in the Middle East... there doesn't seem to be ANY positive route out unless countries like Lebanon get rid of their terrorists, and the Palestinians muzzle the militant aspects of their populace. Pity that neither is likely to happen at all, ever. The only route is the route Israel is taking now... and it's not a good one by any stretch of the imagination. Edit: Yeah, Christians like their apocalypse... they've were screaming 'End of Days' for every major war since it was founded, and every millenia just for the heck of it. I just hope nobody manages to make sure the 'prophecy' is fulfilled... armageddon is one prophecy that doesn't need fulfilling. -_-' this really iritated me, who created the unstable atmosphere in lebanon by ocuppying parts of it in 1967 and by supporting christian extremist millitia during the lebanon civil war?? yup isreal, so please dont picture it as if hizbollah has dropped on isreal from a blue clear sky. i don't support hizbollah's targeting civies of any natinality but i would have liked you making the same decleration agnaist the isreali givenmnet which regularely kills civilians destroys thier homes and the infrastructure "water and electricity plants". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arktis Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Then again' date=' who would listen to him after Afghanistan and Iraq?[/quote'] There are approximately 189,983,000 Christians out of 293,027,571 total people in the U.S. (data is from 2004). That places the United States as the #1 Christian country in the world. http://www.aneki.com/christian.html I don't think I have to spell this one out - it should be fairly obvious. Edit: I hope nobody thinks we should be going around persecuting Christians. That would be so stupid, words fail to describe it. But I think more reasoning is in order. We could start by having REAL ^$&*ing news for a change - that might help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Well, looking at it in the short run, you could say that Israel is doing right, but take into account the history of the region and it all becomes very, very shady. People don't easily forget what has been done to them. One side has done this, the other that.... The whole situation has been handled poorly since the beginning (even since before ww2, the region was not treated respectfully, and then Israel (as we know it today) was not even in the picture). It has all become very complicated, especially because of all the previous history and mistakes. The easiest thing to do, would be completely seperate the parties involved, but that will never happen and it would in turn create another problem of its own. This conflict will keep on returning as long as all the past is not buried once and for all and when that is done all other issues on the table must be faced and dealed with. But since burying the past is unlikely to happen, this conflict will not be solved so easily. That means the problem however will just be pushed aside temporarily (violently or not) every 10-20 years and resurface later again in a similar shape. In fact it is likely that the conflict will be used by indiviuals trying to gain political strength (as has been done before). (I am not the only one seeing a pattern here I think, at least once every decade this same (in essence) problem returns in full strenth (to a minor extend it is present continuously), the only time it didn't really escalade into something bigger was in the 90's when the "Palestinian side" didn't respond quite so heavily on the Isreali 'incursions', in the end it doesn't matter which side begins it, the result will be similar) There is one other solution, and that is a total victory for one side, which would kill millions and again is unlikely to happen, the UN/US/EU/... would stop that possibility quite rapidly I'd guess. For a good reference on the matter, I suggest you have a look at the wikipedia entry on the combined matter. It has links to all sub-conflicts as well. Arab-Isreali conflict Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 The simple fact of the matter is that without America's financial and military support, Israel couldn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I didn't say I thought Israel is doing right... I'm just saying that Israel is doing the only thing left open to Israel at the moment, and the only thing that could stop it is having the impossible happen (i.e. Hezbollah and those groups vanish in some way, or Israel pack up and leave for some other part of the world). As it is now, this conflict is pretty much inevitable, and I just hope another world war doesn't come from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurion Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Israel could restrict its attacks to the Hezbollah guerrilla in the south. Instead, it's hitting civilians and related infrastructure all over Lebanon. Obviously, the Israelis main goal is to bring down the Lebanese State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megalith Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 If we really have to support anyone in the Middle East (i.e. if war is inevitable)' date=' the most logical option would have to be Israel. It IS the most stable nation there, and the country that's least likely to start causing trouble everywhere if it gets the upper hand. [/quote'] What you are suggesting essentially is that you should support the odd one out, all the other nations in the middle east are muslim and as such share more in common with each other than they do with Israel. The fact that wealthy western countries like the US support israels plight over there own is why these troubles are occuring in the first place. The other states in the neighborhood have shown that they can't be nice and run stable' date=' terrorist-free nations. Palestine, at least, has something of an excuse (i.e. powerless government and constantly destabilized power structures). Lebanon and the others like it do not.[/quote'] Man you really do have a problem with understanding the middle east :(. Not only is Hezbollah in existance because of the occupational (American funded) history of Israel but it is a legitimate political party. To blame Lebanon for This 'Party of Allah' which is not recognised by the UN as being a terrorist organisation i must add, is neither fair nor justified. If the US was to stop sponsoring Israel then peace would be a lot likelier to happen but allas America chooses to label Hezbollah and other Islamic groups as terrorists and fund 'the little guys' occupational tendancies. As for niceness Israels encroachment on lebanese territories dating back to the 70's could hardly be seen as 'nice' to the lebanese peoples who were forcibly removed from there homes or slaughtered if they refused. Whos the nice guy? Lebanon has recently regained its dependance from Syria who occupied Lebannon in 1976 under the mandate of stopping civil unrest following a turbulant period after independance from French occupation and the organistion called Hezbollah was set up to defend its borders and to be a positive force in the reconstruction of lebanon. The civilian wing of Hezbollah runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities and participates in the Lebanese Parliament. Its Reconstruction Campaign (Jihad al-Bina) is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructural development projects in Shia-populated areas of Lebanon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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