Mav Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Rewatching Voyager s1 through s7 and even though I'm not on s3 yet, something accured to me; Either first or second time Q visits the ship, he offers to wisk Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant, right to Earth's orbit as a sign of gratitude (s3 I believe, either 3 or 4). Janeway says no, with something along the lines of "that'd take the fun out of it" or something about that being too easy. So like at the end of 7 years, 7 seasons, we knew in those last two episodes Voyager was getting home, other wise it'd be kinda of a sad ending. Needless to say Janeway took a large risk, violating the Temporal Prime Directive as well as the Prime Directive to simply get past the Borg and get home. Now, the entire schtick about "exploring" aside, how the hell does Janeway honestly justify risking the crew's lives, violating both directives of the Federation & Starfleet versus letting Q snap his fingers and getting them home safe & sound instantly? Also put aside the whole "it's a tv show, it needed to last longer than the 3 or 4 years when Q offered help (then again Enterprise only went four seasons and afaik their ratings weren't much better than Voyagers). It really didn't add up in a Federation "moral" sense. Think about it. - Voyager was never originally designed as a exploration ship. Her ship was designed more towards combat than most people care to admit. Them gel packs weren't exactly there to enhance sensor output, they were there to increase response time of vital systems such as shields and weapons. Her first mission was one of combat in the Badlands aganist Maquis. - Of all the times Janeway could have gotten them home, she didn't because of the Prime or Temporal directives. The Caretaker's Array, the transporter unit that beamed objects thousands of lightyears away, etc Yet letting Q offer help, because it was too simple or because she wanted to explore? Maybe if Q hadn't off been in storylines before, it could've been argued that as a higher being she could have declined his offer cause it would be like violating the Prime Directive in "reverse", but obviously Q has been in TNG every season, DS9 once etc Of course in the end we know it's a Trek show and it was before Enterprise so we were definitely used to and knew we'd get at least 7 seasons. Though you gotta admit, declining an innocent no strings attached offer like Q's at that time versus all her other decisions does look kind of hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Well imo Janeway was a horrible captain, making 'bad calls' quite a lot and she certainly was a hypocrit. Though I'll admit that at one point or another, eventually everyone makes hypocritical desicions in life. So you could argue: well, she was only human... Though is the case of the last episode, I think the: "ahhhh, revenge on the Borg" part played an equal role in her desicion to go along with it, and it's easier to accept help from yourself I think then from someone else, so that's another extenuating circumstance... But eh, her decision to not accept Q's offer was not so good, then again, accept an offer from a Q and who knows what might happen, he might drop you off in the Pegasus galaxy. Star Trek: Atlantis... LOL :D edit: oh, and eh, they did pick up some nice technologies along the way, so maybe for the Federation it was good that she didn't return so soon... So depending from what point of view you look at the situation, you can arrive at different conclusions, except for Janeway being a lousy captain, that's for sure, but then again, she did get through the delta quadrant 'on her own', so she can't be that bad... Ah well, notings is clear anymore, it's all grey, which leads me to the grey council, but that's another story. :cyclops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiggy Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Wasn't Janeway a hypocrite at the end? No, like most normal people she believed in herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I'd probably trade hypocritical for immensely stupid. Anyone that ensures their crew can't get home and THEN goes on to turn down the offer to get home from Q FOR NO REASON (except her own pride) is plain stupid. I think she actually says something more along the lines of "we'll do it ourselves! Without your help." because obviously helping Quinn or whatever win his case was more important than the safety of her crew. That's not a bad call - that's a captain ignoring her duty because she wanted to keep on the moral high ground and quite frankly, grounds for the crew to toss her out the nearest airlock. c4evap will likely ride in on flaming horses from hell to dispute that but I think it's fair to say that "bad call" doesn't begin to cover that particular situation. To be honest, anyone in her position - upon meeting Q again - should probably have got it out of him as a reward. For saving the Q continuum from civil war and then for looking after his kid. Maybe after the credits rolled she went "Oh, damn! I forgot to ask him to send us home. Still, that's ok - right guys? We love the Delta Quadrant! Put that phaser down Mr. Kim!" I think Q might be a bit of a bastard but he generally keeps his word and he plays his games but he doesn't GENERALLY hurt anyone. If you look at it beyond the context of the "meta" reason, Janeway was a bad captain who ultimately only went back in time (which according to the USS Relativity episode should have had her locked up) to save 7 of 9, not save her crew years more off their journey. Still, you could see the entire debacle of Endgame as a type of repentence... although if she was going to mess with time that much, why not just save the crew at the start of the show? Ah well, never expect consistency from Janeway, that's what I've learnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabrood Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Janeway regrets her decision about the caretaker (5x01 "Night") so I think she regrets her decision regarding Q as well, although we never saw that on screen. On the other hand, Voyager isn't exactly noted for brillant writing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antipodean Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Janeway regrets her decision about the caretaker (5x01 "Night") so I think she regrets her decision regarding Q as well, although we never saw that on screen. On the other hand, Voyager isn't exactly noted for brillant writing... Agreed. And its worth considering that 3 years into the journey, its entirely likely that one could still maintain a positive and idealogical outlook. At 7 years, with god knows how many more crewmen dead, and with Voyager having been exposed to no shortage of punishment... isn't it understandable that Janeway might have shifted her position somewhat? Thats not hypocrisy, thats just human. None the less, I still maintain that regardless of the circumstances, its just not cool to violate the Prime Directive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amnot Borg Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 None the less, I still maintain that regardless of the circumstances, its just not cool to violate the Prime Directive. ....unless you are a captain named Kirk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 It means she realised she was wrong... but I agree, I don't think it's hypocrisy. Hell, in Endgame older Janeway basically tells her younger self to stop being so stupid ;) And violating the Prime Directive is ok... if it's warranted. Violating the Temporal Prime Directive - and essentially for no better reason than saving a hottie Borg - is pretty weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mav Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 None the less, I still maintain that regardless of the circumstances, its just not cool to violate the Prime Directive. How would taking Q up on his offer, which if I recall correctly, he's offered at least twice, a violation of the Prime Directive? AFAIK, there's no charter in the P.D. that states a Starfleet vessel may not be helped or interact with what's classified as a higher being or lifeform. If so, Kirk, Picard and definitely Sisko would have all been out of jobs ;\ Just a snap of the old fingers, and boom they're back home. No death no destruction no violations of the P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyperion Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 The Prime Directive has been broken by every Captain from Kirk to Janeway. Archer even stuck his foot in a few times but there wasn't a Prime Directive at that point. It seems to be a tool so they can choose to ignore someone they don't like and they just put it aside when they want something as the situation warrants. In that instance Quinn asked her for asylum and she had an offer to deny him in exchange for safe passage home. She refused because she was upholding Federation values. We discussed it in the "Why Voyager Sucks" thread about how it was like they were expecting to get home tomorrow (okay that isn't the actual title of the thread but it's more accurate). The way it was written was Voyager in the Delta Quadrant with the Alpha within one light year of them. As for Q, none of his offers come without a price. The very first time humanity met him he put the entire race on trial, then there was changing Riker, introducing the Borg, helping Picard destroy humanity once and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 To be honest, none of those were permanent. I think it would be more accurate to say that Q was testing humans than anything else. As to you post Mav, I think you've misinterpreted Antipodean. It was - as I read it - a general point and not related at all to Quinn. To be honest, the Prime Directive is pretty lame if you ask me. It's just a way for the Federation to not do anything - except when the odd captain feels it's warranted. Although, it does change from TOS to TNG because it starts out as interfering with any pre-warp but by the time of the Klingon Civil War, it's changed to any intereference with anyone - period, even if they ask for help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amnot Borg Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 The Prime Directive is a simple Rule. Every rule has exceptions to it when necessary. Q maintained at the end of STNG that the human race had been on trial during the ENTIRE series. Probably still was during the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Well, yes - at the end of Encounter at Farpoint, he doesn't say "you're innocent" he just says that they've been granted a stay of execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Rewatching Voyager s1 through s7 and even though I'm not on s3 yet, something accured to me; Either first or second time Q visits the ship, he offers to wisk Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant, right to Earth's orbit as a sign of gratitude (s3 I believe, either 3 or 4). Janeway says no, with something along the lines of "that'd take the fun out of it" or something about that being too easy. Actually, I believe Q would only send them home if Janeway "bedded down" with him. Mayhaps you should actually watch the entire series again before you start bad mouthing the show. Just a thought... c4 :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mav Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 Rewatching Voyager s1 through s7 and even though I'm not on s3 yet, something accured to me; Either first or second time Q visits the ship, he offers to wisk Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant, right to Earth's orbit as a sign of gratitude (s3 I believe, either 3 or 4). Janeway says no, with something along the lines of "that'd take the fun out of it" or something about that being too easy. Actually, I believe Q would only send them home if Janeway "bedded down" with him. Mayhaps you should actually watch the entire series again before you start bad mouthing the show. Just a thought... c4 :rolleyes: I've seen the entire show. First time Q offers help is when Quinn wants to die. Q offers to send Voyager home if Janeway rules in favor of the Continuum. Second time is the whole mating issue. Even later on with Q's Son when he's grown up, Q would probably make the same offer (afaik he didn't). But the point was, Janeway says for a fact "no". After she helped bring peace to the Continuum and help usher in a new era for the Q by making Q and Female Q mate, you'd think she'd be entitled to a reward that had no negative effects. In fact IIRC earlier in that episode she says they wouldn't take the easy way home, humans are natural explorers yadda yadda yadda In other words she looked the gift horse in the mouth. Hell Q probably would have granted the same thing after the incident with Quinn regardless of Janeway's ruling, since he truly understood Quinn and followed his logic. All Janeway had to do was ask at that point and probably Q would have granted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 It's always good to know that the moral effifacy of your captain ranks higher than her duty to her crew. If shagging around got her crew home - she should damned well have done it. Oh and hoisted by your own batard c4evap, maybe you should go watch the entire series again. Left yourself open to that. Clumsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Thanks. I'll certainly do that. I like to be certain. c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrimmer Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Dear me, c$ will be forced to do the dreadful homework of watching her favorite series over again..... Good plan... if anyone ever says "Your atching that, again?" you can tell em its to win an argument ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c4evap Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Naw. No sweat, but Voyager will have to wait a bit (though I would appreciate it if either Tenebrae or Mav would give me the exact EP name they are using for a basic of their claim), I'm currently working my way through The Greatest American Hero at the monent. Love that Bill Maxwell character! c4 B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 It's not a claim, it's a fact... let's see the episode is... Death Wish, season 2. Guest appearance from Frakes. It sets up the events of Q and the Grey. Janeway honestly does say "We'll get home on our own!" Or words to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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