Wasn't Janeway a hypocrite at the end?

[teowind]

Well I'd say that after the encounters with Q in TNG and DS9, there must be logs of the occasion. And I'd guess that somewhere in those logs and reports it would say that Q "can't be trusted" or something along the lines of that.

 

So my guess is that Janeway is familiar with the Q entity and declines the offer since it might put the Voyager's crew in even more danger.

[Guest c4evap]

It's not a claim, it's a fact... let's see the episode is... Death Wish, season 2. Guest appearance from Frakes. It sets up the events of Q and the Grey.

 

Janeway honestly does say "We'll get home on our own!" Or words to that effect.

 

Well, if you don't know her exact words then it is a claim and not a fact. However, I will watch that EP closely.

 

BTW...let's try and be a bit less adversarial shall we? You seem to constantly have your hand on your knife looking for a back to stick it into (IMHO).

 

c4 :thinking:

[Tenebrae]

You seem to constantly have your hand on your knife looking for a back to stick it into (IMHO).

 

It's the safest way but it looks like you're in Tenebrae character assassination mode.

 

If you will keep doubting our word, do you expect me to meekly say "Sorry! I was lying all along." No reason for me to lie because anyone could go off and check the episode. I rather thought we were all able to just take things on trust. Lordy, if we had to go check every episode everytime this happened...

[Guest c4evap]

You seem to constantly have your hand on your knife looking for a back to stick it into (IMHO).

 

It's the safest way but it looks like you're in Tenebrae character assassination mode.

I am not trying to assassinate you. Girl scout's word!

 

If you will keep doubting our word' date=' do you expect me to meekly say "Sorry! I was lying all along." No reason for me to lie because anyone could go off and check the episode. I rather thought we were all able to just take things on trust. Lordy, if we had to go check every episode everytime this happened...[/quote']

Come now! I've seen you (and many other) ask for proof before. Where was your "trust" then? I will watch the EP again and if you're correct I will certainly say so. I simply do not recall Janeway saying that, but of couse I could be incorrect. The memory is the first thing to go.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention...I haven't gotten around to watching it again yet bacause I've been in hospital with stones. Been sleeping mostly and recovering.

 

c4 B)

[Bunkei]

Rewatching Voyager s1 through s7 and even though I'm not on s3 yet, something accured to me;

 

Either first or second time Q visits the ship, he offers to wisk Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant, right to Earth's orbit as a sign of gratitude (s3 I believe, either 3 or 4).

 

That is not true. The first "offer" Q made was in exchange for a favorable judgment, when she was basically forced to be an arbitrator in the Q dilemma.

 

If she would have accepted his offer, there's no telling what the consequences could have been, especially considering that there would be a rogue suicidal Q roaming the universe.

 

Janeway says no, with something along the lines of "that'd take the fun out of it" or something about that being too easy.

 

Not true.

 

So like at the end of 7 years, 7 seasons, we knew in those last two episodes Voyager was getting home, other wise it'd be kinda of a sad ending. Needless to say Janeway took a large risk, violating the Temporal Prime Directive as well as the Prime Directive to simply get past the Borg and get home.

 

Indeed she did. I don't think she was supposed to be the 'perfect' Captain, like Picard was. She had strong, moral convictions. People often forget that Voyager was her first ship she commanded as captain.

 

Now, the entire schtick about "exploring" aside, how the hell does Janeway honestly justify risking the crew's lives, violating both directives of the Federation & Starfleet versus letting Q snap his fingers and getting them home safe & sound instantly?

 

I already explained why she declined his first offer. The second offer to return the crew home came with the condition that Janeway would "mate" with Q, and conceive a child. I don't expect anyone under Janeway's command would find that an acceptable compromise.

 

Also put aside the whole "it's a tv show, it needed to last longer than the 3 or 4 years when Q offered help (then again Enterprise only went four seasons and afaik their ratings weren't much better than Voyagers).

 

It really didn't add up in a Federation "moral" sense. Think about it.

 

- Voyager was never originally designed as a exploration ship. Her ship was designed more towards combat than most people care to admit. Them gel packs weren't exactly there to enhance sensor output, they were there to increase response time of vital systems such as shields and weapons. Her first mission was one of combat in the Badlands aganist Maquis.

 

I think your "moral sense" is a bit skewed, I'm afraid. You are correct, however, that Voyager was a ship designed for tracking & combat purposes.

 

- Of all the times Janeway could have gotten them home, she didn't because of the Prime or Temporal directives. The Caretaker's Array, the transporter unit that beamed objects thousands of lightyears away, etc Yet letting Q offer help, because it was too simple or because she wanted to explore? Maybe if Q hadn't off been in storylines before, it could've been argued that as a higher being she could have declined his offer cause it would be like violating the Prime Directive in "reverse", but obviously Q has been in TNG every season, DS9 once etc

 

Ok here, I have to question whether or not you actually watched the episodes completely. The transporter technology you speak of didn't work. Tuvok went against Janeway's orders and traded for it, only for it not to work. Torres stated that the transporter could never be compatible with federation technology.

 

Of course in the end we know it's a Trek show and it was before Enterprise so we were definitely used to and knew we'd get at least 7 seasons. Though you gotta admit, declining an innocent no strings attached offer like Q's at that time versus all her other decisions does look kind of hypocritical.

 

Again, Q's offer was anything but "no strings attached".

[Mav]

That is not true. The first "offer" Q made was in exchange for a favorable judgment, when she was basically forced to be an arbitrator in the Q dilemma.

 

If she would have accepted his offer, there's no telling what the consequences could have been, especially considering that there would be a rogue suicidal Q roaming the universe.

 

Yes, and I pointed that out, the first "offer". A suicidal Q was really not that much of a bother considering what "Q" (John D. Lance) has done for like 8 years on TNG/DS9. Sure the "war" later broke out in the continuum but even Q says something like that, might have happened eventually anyway.

 

Not true.

 

Please, proof that? Myself and Tenebrae have both quoted her on this, as said somewhat loosely but she herself says that to at least one of Q's several offers to get them home. Hypocritical once you see "Endgame"

 

Indeed she did. I don't think she was supposed to be the 'perfect' Captain, like Picard was. She had strong, moral convictions. People often forget that Voyager was her first ship she commanded as captain.

 

I never said she had to ber perfect nor like Picard. And if it's any relevance since you seem to think it is, Picard and Sisko were both great captains in my opinion but neither perfect (and neither was Kirk or Archer).

 

I already explained why she declined his first offer. The second offer to return the crew home came with the condition that Janeway would "mate" with Q, and conceive a child. I don't expect anyone under Janeway's command would find that an acceptable compromise.

 

The "mating" involved touching some fingers here. We'll assume it would have been the same for a Q/Human as it was for Q/Q. Wow, so Janeway has to help Q father a son, so she can save countless lives over the course of the next 30 some odd years (not taking into account "Endgame" which was pretty far in the future at that point of the show) seems like a hell of a bargin.

 

Ok here, I have to question whether or not you actually watched the episodes completely. The transporter technology you speak of didn't work. Tuvok went against Janeway's orders and traded for it, only for it not to work. Torres stated that the transporter could never be compatible with federation technology.

 

Obviously it didn't work. Trust me my knack for detail can work at times. (notice the same prop used for the transporter in that episode is used as a prop held by Wesley Crusher in TNG s2?). Regardless, it was a piece of technology they got without taking any lives or frakking up any timelines, that could have worked. Sure it didn't work but ya never know till you try. Hell, Janeway authorized the use of the transwarp at one point, they knocked what, 10 years off their journey before it broke down? (don't go starting an argument about stealing from the Borg is ok)

 

Again, Q's offer was anything but "no strings attached".

 

All she had to do was ask. After opening Q's eyes to Quinn's problems, helping him mate with Female Q, saving the entire Continuum from civil frakking war, yea I'm pretty damn sure Q wouldn't mind snapping his fingers and saving them 40 years of travel (again, pre "Endgame").

[Tenebrae]

Ah, this old chesnut again...

 

It goes without saying that I'm with Mav. There are a couple of CLEAR undeniable oppurtunities where Janeway passes over things that would help her get home - I don't see how you really debate it, if you watch the show it's all there.

 

One has to face facts, there was a bit of a limit on HOW far they could get before their seven years were up.

[Soval]

voyager was a hard thing to push through to completion. I mean, a seventy year voyage in just 7 years? That's really tough to pull off. Janeway had a hard job on her hands, one she was not prepared for and one where she did make mistakes.

[Tenebrae]

She made it hard - when you've got the option to either hit the button that takes you home or blow it up you don't really get to go "Oh, it was unavoidable."

 

Obviously, it's more complex than that because of what Voyager did in seven years and that Janeway managed to get home in seven years instead of seventy is quite impressive but there you go.

[Guest c4evap]

The "mating" involved touching some fingers here. We'll assume it would have been the same for a Q/Human as it was for Q/Q. Wow' date=' so Janeway has to help Q father a son, so she can save countless lives over the course of the next 30 some odd years (not taking into account "Endgame" which was pretty far in the future at that point of the show) seems like a hell of a bargain.[/quote']

When O when will men understand that we women just don't jump into bed with whomever. Why can't you understand that Janeway just didn't wanna copulate with Q?!? Be it touching fingers or dropping pants...it's a very personal choice. I don't blame her.

 

c4 B)

[Soval]

Endgame certainly changed Janeway's strategy to deal with time travel. She was fiercely opposed to time paradoxes. In Endgame her future self really deviated from that strategy.

[GorunNova]

Actually, as far as the Q situation was concerned, I think Janeway's choice was obvious. Q is capricious... there was no guarantee that he would keep his promise even if Janeway DID have a kid with him.

[Tenebrae]

That point has been raised before and I'd say Q is more mischievous that actually malevolent or even deceitful, I think if he promised something he'd deliver upon it.

 

As to Endgame... I personally think the time travel element was there solely to give an alternate future. Or maybe it was just to demonstrate a supreme irony - that for all (forgetting the times she went a bit crazy) her moral high horsing, she had to swallow her pride and go against everything she believed in to save her crew. At least, I think all those aspects can be derived from Endgame and of course, Old Janeway ultimately redeems herself by dying and suchlike.

 

A Q/Janeway baby might have been funny, you just know there'd have been a custody battle somewhere down the line.

[Soval]

That would have been quite funny. Old Janeway certainly redeemed herself by sacrificing herself for her younger self and crew.

[Tenebrae]

If there was any real sense in the show, she'd have ceased to exist, as she came from an alternate timeline that she prevented from existing anyway... not that Star Trek has ever had a consistent stance on that... because naturally that would mean paradox.

[Guest c4evap]

As to Endgame... I personally think the time travel element was there solely to give an alternate future. Or maybe it was just to demonstrate a supreme irony - that for all (forgetting the times she went a bit crazy) her moral high horsing, she had to swallow her pride and go against everything she believed in to save her crew. At least, I think all those aspects can be derived from Endgame and of course, Old Janeway ultimately redeems herself by dying and suchlike.

 

A Q/Janeway baby might have been funny, you just know there'd have been a custody battle somewhere down the line.

I do believe the "time travel" element was necessary because the writers knew the show was ending and didn't want it "open-ended". Janeway gets to destroy the Borg queen AND get her crew home (all in two hours...pretty good...lol). The "alternate future" was simply another (overused?) plot device (IMHO).

 

If there was any real sense in the show' date=' she'd have ceased to exist, as she came from an alternate timeline that she prevented from existing anyway... not that Star Trek has ever had a consistent stance on that... because naturally that would mean paradox.[/quote']

Maybe those timelines continue anyway. Who can really say???

 

c4 B)

[gjnave]

Actually, I believe Q would only send them home if Janeway "bedded down" with him.

 

c4

 

Exactly

[gjnave]

The "mating" involved touching some fingers here. We'll assume it would have been the same for a Q/Human as it was for Q/Q. Wow' date=' so Janeway has to help Q father a son, so she can save countless lives over the course of the next 30 some odd years (not taking into account "Endgame" which was pretty far in the future at that point of the show) seems like a hell of a bargain.[/quote']

 

 

Actually, Janeway didnt know that it only involved touching fingers. At the end when Q & Q "touched fingers" she said "That's it?". Which implies she thought it was something else (i.e. the ol' bump and grind).

 

[gjnave]

If there was any real sense in the show' date=' she'd have ceased to exist, as she came from an alternate timeline that she prevented from existing anyway... not that Star Trek has ever had a consistent stance on that... because naturally that would mean paradox.[/quote']

 

I read a paper once that described the different types of temporal devices used in Star Trek. Unfortunately I cant find it again. However, it listed like 3 or 4 (4 or 5?) theories actually used in the series. At any rate, the point im trying to make is that messing with the timeline in the Star Trek universe is not as cut and dry as "making yourself cease to exist" because of a change to the timeline.

 

HOWEVER, that device is definitely used in many, many episodes. (again) however, not all of them.

 

Here is a link that doesn't do justice to the paper i read before but does talk (a bit) about parallel universes. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Alternate_timeline