martog Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Gul Dukat is a thought provoking character. It seems that he always made logical and correct decisions but, in the end, failed miserably as a leader. From the prospective of logic he formed vast alliances that seemed undefeatable. This bolstered the Cardassian Empire from a crumbling mass to a great height. He masterminded an invasion which took control of the warmhole and DSN, the most vital of all sectors during the Dominion War. He Imprisoned possible sabotours. Even when the war was near an end he could have prevailed in his plans of conquest by releasing the Pah-Wrath's. As a military leader he truly made no illogical decisions, but he lost the war and his life. His alliances lead to the near anniliation of Cardassia. Billions Died. The Cardassians were brought up as a soldiers (men born of Dukat's own heart), yet one named Damar would kill his Daughter. His daughter released the prisoners who would help Defiant and Sisko destroy an entire fleet of Dominion vessels, which in turn lead the Dominion retreat from DSN and their ultimate defeat. Dukat concluded the Pa-Wraths was his only hope in winning the war. All this seems to hint that fate will not reward the bad man, even if logical decisions are made - they will be turned against you. This was incredable character development in my mind. What did you guys think of Dukat's character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 thought he was one of the best villans - when he had power - Working with Weyoun and Damar and such. He was also good in the episodes before his alliance with the Dominion - when the Klingons attacked and he had to crawl his was back into power. The Episode 'Return to Grace' for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 It seems that he always made logical and correct decisions but' date=' in the end, failed [/quote'] course he did. he is a baddie. plus, he was fighting against the federation and they are better qualified and more determined. and besides, star trek is no fun when the baddies win - unlike star wars when the best movies are when the baddies win. dukat was a well constructed character and very well developed throughout ds9. i loved how he was reduced to a cargo ship gul and then stole a bird of prey to become cardassia's leader and ultimately lose his daughter the reason for his sudden fall from grace to go loopy and release the pa raiths, etc. cool character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorunNova Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Hmmm... from a certain perspective, he could be considered a tragic hero... fallen due to his own nature, making choices right for him and his people, yet leading them to their downfall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarneyCletus Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 The point of Gul Dukat was that he was Sisko in all but one department. While both may have made very similar decisions in similar circumstances, Dukat always considered himself first and then others, unlike Sisko. Sisko made some very questionable decisions too but everyone knew that he beat himself up to get to that decision and he probably still does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 The more you 'gamble', the more you have to lose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martog Posted June 20, 2005 Author Share Posted June 20, 2005 The point of Gul Dukat was that he was Sisko in all but one department. I wish the writers could have found Picard a worthy adversary in the TNG movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulreaper Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karimw786 Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 DOes anyone know when Gul Dukat first appeared in Star Trek? My guess is Star Trek DS9 - 1x19 - Duet. Can anyone name an earlier episode where he was shown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jawa Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 the first episode he sends sisko a msg giving him the station doesn't he?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karimw786 Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 the first episode he sends sisko a msg giving him the station doesn't he?? you gotta be more specific... my knowledge of DS9 is limited. I am just now making my way through Nite's DS9 encodes. That's the first time I believe I have seen Dukat; i.e. in 1x19 - Duet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elderbear Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Hmmm... from a certain perspective, he could be considered a tragic hero... fallen due to his own nature, making choices right for him and his people, yet leading them to their downfall... And here lies the key to his defeat - the Federation was built to make the best choices for the Community of people, whereas Dukat and Cardassia were only one race. Sure, they had allies, but they weren't a federation ... and in the end they were isolated and lost. One of my favorite posters has two figures in it: Figure 1: Two long pieces of rope, disconected, end to end, with the title "The Halves" Figure 2 (next to figure one): A whole bunch of small pieces of rope, tied together, making a rope as long as both the other two combined. Caption: "The Have Knots" Cardassia wasn't built to have knots. The Federation was. Cardassia was at a huge disadvantage. Their failure to adapt, to join left them unable to adapt to a changing quadrant where the power was concentrating in connections and mutual aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 the first episode he sends sisko a msg giving him the station doesn't he?? you gotta be more specific... my knowledge of DS9 is limited. I am just now making my way through Nite's DS9 encodes. That's the first time I believe I have seen Dukat; i.e. in 1x19 - Duet. gul dukat appears in the tng episode where a cptain goes rogue and turns on random cardassian ships. he was wearing a silly thing on his head. or at least it was the same actor.....i cant remember that far back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 the first episode he sends sisko a msg giving him the station doesn't he?? you gotta be more specific... my knowledge of DS9 is limited. I am just now making my way through Nite's DS9 encodes. That's the first time I believe I have seen Dukat; i.e. in 1x19 - Duet. gul dukat appears in the tng episode where a cptain goes rogue and turns on random cardassian ships. he was wearing a silly thing on his head. or at least it was the same actor.....i cant remember that far back Marc (Dukat) played Gul Macet. The first ever episode with Cardassians. Very cool loved it when O'Brien and CPT Maxwell sang before the captain got arrested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daffydk Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 The point of Gul Dukat was that he was Sisko in all but one department. I wish the writers could have found Picard a worthy adversary in the TNG movies. Most of TNG was not designed as arcs. It was a show in which every episode stood by itself. In fact some episodes could have been a movie of its own. Picard had to carry out his mission of exploring space and seeking out new species and new civilizations. I think Gene meant it that way so that every exploration gives us a new insight. DS9 and Voyager had the exploration aspect but it wasnt the central theme. It was more of us against the bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daffydk Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Gul Dukat is a thought provoking character. It seems that he always made logical and correct decisions but, in the end, failed miserably as a leader. ..... All this seems to hint that fate will not reward the bad man, even if logical decisions are made - they will be turned against you. This was incredable character development in my mind. What did you guys think of Dukat's character? My take is that Dukat was a good actor and a very complex character, much more so than sisko. Quark, Wayoun and Dukat were the ones that excelled every one else on DS9. Notice how Sisko is motionless and expressionless when its not his turn to talk among others --especialy in the first season or 2. Its almost as if he is thinking of his lines, what to say next rather than be in the moment and be the captain that he is. As far as dukat and his 'logical' decesions: I think they were logical to him but he was written in or designed/scripted so that he didnt really make the best logical decesions. Instead of making alliances and considering people as equals, he always pushed for dominance his people. And even within himself, it was always about him. See the episode where he crash lands with sisko on the planet and he is trying to justify himself and eventualy t he real thruth comes out about why he is doing what he does. It wasnt about cardasia or his people, it was about his own ego and his lust/thirst for power and dominance,. Thats exactly why he went to release the paw raiths becuase he thought he could control them and benefit, not becuase its the 'best' thing for his people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martog Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 daffydk said: Thats exactly why he went to release the paw raiths becuase he thought he could control them and benefit, not becuase its the 'best' thing for his people. On Cardassia the military institutions did not care how one obtained the justification for the means, they were just concerned with the finished result. This point is brought home in Garek when he destroyed a Romulan ship to place blame on the Dominion. Garek was perplexed as to why Sisko was mad. Dukat's decisions we're logical to him because of the way he was trained. Another example of the Cardassian soldiers doing what he was taught were the events that lead to Zial's death. Garek blamed Cardassian training for Damar's actions, that is why he didn't kill him during the resistance movement (or so Andrew J. Robinson says in his book A Stitch In Time.) The destruction of the old Cardassian ways was scripted as necessary. The home that Garek returned to after his exile had to be destroyed so that it could be rebuilt on a solid foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jawa Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Am I the only one who doesn't see dukat as evil. In the episode where he and sisko are alone on the planet, he in the end in his frustration finds out that he should have killed all bajorens. What would you think if everytime you try to make their live's better they kill/destroy or even try to assisinate you. You can't just let that go with a reaction. And even when you try again and again and they keep on doing it, what would you feel. I would feel: like fine let them die, the stupid people. Just look at kira, there is a person who hates just because she feels her entire people is being mistreated. And when someone tries to help she sees it as a ploy to push them even further into the dirt. Gul Dukat was justified in the things he did, cause in the end. What would you do if the people you try to help spit in your face and say screw you?? You don't help them. And so he let the bad things happen, he wasn't alive when the occupation started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Thats exactly why he went to release the paw raiths becuase he thought he could control them and benefit, not becuase its the 'best' thing for his people. he did that to take revenge on sisko and the dominion alliance would benefit too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Am I the only one who doesn't see dukat as evil. In the episode where he and sisko are alone on the planet' date=' he in the end in his frustration finds out that he should have killed all bajorens. What would you think if everytime you try to make their live's better they kill/destroy or even try to assisinate you. You can't just let that go with a reaction.[/quote'] i dont see him as evil. he is simply acting upon his beliefs. those beliefs lead to evil acts. when he and sisko are alone he is quite mad at this point. sisko, when they are sitting in the cave highlights that dukat is responding to non apparent stimuli. he even acts out when non in sisko's prescence. in a way i find his character tragic. it seems he only wants to do his job but has wound up doing terrible things and is simply unable to cope. he cant leave his post and he cant stop enforcing rule on the bejorans. denial SEEMED to be the route he took And even when you try again and again and they keep on doing it' date=' what would you feel. I would feel: like fine let them die, the stupid people. [/quote'] i dont know if you missed the point with his character. he was IMHO obsessed with being positively regarded. he could not understand why the people he was killing did not love him. which suggests that he's a bit barmy in the first place. Just look at kira' date=' there is a person who hates just because she feels her entire people is being mistreated. And when someone tries to help she sees it as a ploy to push them even further into the dirt.[/quote'] which eps are you referring to? i cant think of any that fit the bill and am now 3 eps from the end of the whole season Gul Dukat was justified in the things he did, cause in the end. What would you do if the people you try to help spit in your face and say screw you?? You don't help them. And so he let the bad things happen, he wasn't alive when the occupation started... im not sure if there is a difference between justifiable and understandable. his actions were understandable certainly. the guy must have FELT profoundly betrayed by his people in so many ways but taking so many lives is not in any way justifiable. his people invaded and therefore he had a choice. he may not have been able to facilitate the withdrawl of cardie forces but could have asked for reassignment because he refused to participate. he had the right and ability to choose. nobody took that away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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