Marcroft Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 What about the cannon on the moon for diverting asteroids in Enterprise? You figure that in more than 100 years something better could be made' date=' and with the range and accuracy of the thing (picking of a building from Mars is a bit like shooting a flea off a dog at 100 yards) that should have been a hindrance to the Borg[/quote'] Whenever I think about that laser - I am always reminded of the scene from an Austin Powers movie - where Dr Evil wants to put a big giant laser on the moon and call it the Death Star. Starfleet is quite week though - in terms of numbers its fleet is too thin and spread out too far. In TNG I think the Starfleet ships were seen as being similar to TOS - a small arsenal at the disposal and command of its Captain - but then with the development of other more hostile races, we just kind of saw how bad Starfleet designs are. I mean a Galaxy Class Starship was taken out by Jem Hadar attack fighters, which are like 1/25th its size. That’s what I loved when the Defiant was created. A small yet powerful Starship which could out manoeuvre and out gun anything else. I also do not understand why we don’t see more planetary defences. When the Dominion invaded Betazed - you hear that they overwhelmed the planetary defences. Which means that they have some at least? Thinking on that a little more - you would think that the Betazoids' would make good combat solders, as they would be able to read an enemies next move? But it would be nice to see what could be done with a movies budget to see the size of the Federation fleet. I was amazed when First Contact came out - with that opening sequence of the fleet against the Borg, but was just blown away by Deep Space Nines sequences - and on a smaller budget too. On a final note - it did make me laugh in Star Trek Nemesis - when the Enterprise was rendezvousing with the federation fleet of 6/7 ships - have the Federation not learned???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 ....we just kind of saw how bad Starfleet designs are. I mean a Galaxy Class Starship was taken out by Jem Hadar attack fighters' date=' which are like 1/25th its size. That’s what I loved when the Defiant was created. A small yet powerful Starship which could out manoeuvre and out gun anything else.[/quote'] It isn't that the designs are bad, it's just that these ships were never designed as combat vessels!! They were exploratory vessels with a bit of firepower to protect themselves during missions of exploration. Furthermore, it is so that Starfleet was not intended as a military organisation, but as an exploration wing for the Federation. They have been forced into the role of military defenders because there is no other organisation capable of doing any defending. With the release of newer models, like the Akira-class, Defiant-class, Sovereign-class, there has been more emphasis on the military part of their duties (wich at first was hardly present). To continue about this military evolution: if Gene were still alive, he would never have agreed to go in that direction with Starfleet, he wanted it to be an organisation to be dedicated to peace and exploration, not a military organisation. I would even dare say that he would never have condoned the episodes with large scale warfare. StarTrek was about peace, not war, just look at all the episodes were he was still in charge; a conflict, sure,... a battle, sure,... but a large scale battle over multiple episodes, never! I do feel that the studio introduced these feats to the StarTrek universe for just one thing: they are spectacular!!! And they think that is all the public is interested in... Well, they're wrong: TNG is still the most appreciated series in the StarTrek universe and there are never large scale battles over multiple episodes in TNG... But what am I whining on about,... I have to say that I personaly also enjoyed the episodes involving warfare... But to say that the Federation fleet was composed of bad designs, no!! They just weren't intended for the military use. And as you can see, when the script writers start with giving them the new purpose, they also slowly come up with new designs, better suited for this new purpose. I'm sure that if they continue down the military path for Starfleet, they will come up with even more militaristic and even less humanistic vessels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relentless Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 ....we just kind of saw how bad Starfleet designs are. I mean a Galaxy Class Starship was taken out by Jem Hadar attack fighters' date=' which are like 1/25th its size. That’s what I loved when the Defiant was created. A small yet powerful Starship which could out manoeuvre and out gun anything else.[/quote'] It isn't that the designs are bad, it's just that these ships were never designed as combat vessels!! They were exploratory vessels with a bit of firepower to protect themselves during missions of exploration. Furthermore, it is so that Starfleet was not intended as a military organisation, but as an exploration wing for the Federation. They have been forced into the role of military defenders because there is no other organisation capable of doing any defending. With the release of newer models, like the Akira-class, Defiant-class, Sovereign-class, there has been more emphasis on the military part of their duties (wich at first was hardly present). To continue about this military evolution: if Gene were still alive, he would never have agreed to go in that direction with Starfleet, he wanted it to be an organisation to be dedicated to peace and exploration, not a military organisation. I would even dare say that he would never have condoned the episodes with large scale warfare. StarTrek was about peace, not war, just look at all the episodes were he was still in charge; a conflict, sure,... a battle, sure,... but a large scale battle over multiple episodes, never! I do feel that the studio introduced these feats to the StarTrek universe for just one thing: they are spectacular!!! And they think that is all the public is interested in... Well, they're wrong: TNG is still the most appreciated series in the StarTrek universe and there are never large scale battles over multiple episodes in TNG... But what am I whining on about,... I have to say that I personaly also enjoyed the episodes involving warfare... But to say that the Federation fleet was composed of bad designs, no!! They just weren't intended for the military use. And as you can see, when the script writers start with giving them the new purpose, they also slowly come up with new designs, better suited for this new purpose. I'm sure that if they continue down the military path for Starfleet, they will come up with even more militaristic and even less humanistic vessels... You and others like you have a lot of nerve to assume what good old Gene Rodenberry would want. Furthermore you have no idea what he'd like and you never ever will. Everyone's a unique person and I don't believe you can control his thoughts with your mindgames and guilt-trips of "Oh Gene Would Want this". It's pathetic, I'd like to see people like you get off your physcological mind-game chairs and actually see the series for what it is, a series of star trek elaborated by a collective of writers and marketers to make a bloody living and eat, not to watch you sniveling pharts talk about what Gene would want. And appologies if that's too harsh but I'm somewhat of an 'exciteable' person. Quite emotional, infact so emotional I should get counceling from a Vulcan ;) To be even more honest, with military it shows tints of the human's previous moral and militaristic struggles in life and to ignore them would to be as to disregaurd any possibility of the human/Federation of having any capability for evil deeds. I'd hate to watch a series that made us out to be damned angels 100% of the time. I think that 98% of the time is better than the full blown "Human's are so culturally diverse and morally correct and not corrupt". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 To continue about this military evolution: if Gene were still alive, he would never have agreed to go in that direction with Starfleet, he wanted it to be an organisation to be dedicated to peace and exploration, not a military organisation. I would even dare say that he would never have condoned the episodes with large scale warfare. StarTrek was about peace, not war, just look at all the episodes were he was still in charge; a conflict, sure,... a battle, sure,... but a large scale battle over multiple episodes, never! I do feel that the studio introduced these feats to the StarTrek universe for just one thing: they are spectacular!!! And they think that is all the public is interested in... Well, they're wrong: TNG is still the most appreciated series in the StarTrek universe and there are never large scale battles over multiple episodes in TNG... But what am I whining on about,... I have to say that I personaly also enjoyed the episodes involving warfare... You and others like you have a lot of nerve to assume what good old Gene Rodenberry would want. Furthermore you have no idea what he'd like and you never ever will. Everyone's a unique person and I don't believe you can control his thoughts with your mindgames and guilt-trips of "Oh Gene Would Want this". It's pathetic, I'd like to see people like you get off your physcological mind-game chairs and actually see the series for what it is, a series of star trek elaborated by a collective of writers and marketers to make a bloody living and eat, not to watch you sniveling pharts talk about what Gene would want. And appologies if that's too harsh but I'm somewhat of an 'exciteable' person. Quite emotional, infact so emotional I should get counceling from a Vulcan ;) Relax mate, don't get so excited or might up seriously offending people. Even if you appologise in advance. I'm sure you can make your point without insulting words like: nerve, mindgames, guilt-trips, pathetic, sniveling pharts,... All I said was what I'd think he would like, of course I can't possibly know what he'd want, that's why I didn't explicitly say: "I think", in these sentence (if Gene were still alive, he would never have agreed to go in that direction with Starfleet; he would never have condoned the episodes with large scale warfare), because it is extremely rediculous to think that I know what he thought/thinks. I can extrapolate with the information at hand, that while he was 'in command', these things were not in the show. And my explanation for them being introduced to the show, being for the pure fact that it is spectacular is just my personal idea, I never offered it as a scientific truth or anything. I come to this forum to quietly discuss StarTrek and to help others if they've got 'technical' problems, not to have insults thrown at my head!!! So let me offer my opinion and you can offer yours as well, but I'm sure you can find ways to do it without insulting people (right now me)!!! To be even more honest' date=' with military it shows tints of the human's previous moral and militaristic struggles in life and to ignore them would to be as to disregaurd any possibility of the human/Federation of having any capability for evil deeds.[/quote'] I fully agreed that I liked the episodes showing the things you describe. Further: I like all of StarTrek, the whole idea of it is great. Maybe I don't agree with everything and how they solve some problems, but I sure do like it, all of it! I'd hate to watch a series that made us out to be damned angels 100% of the time. I think that 98% of the time is better than the full blown "Human's are so culturally diverse and morally correct and not corrupt". You must hate TOS then, he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayjay21 Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 well i think the wars have been good for star trek it has brought a whole new generation /audience to star trek and plus it cant always be peace and quiet and holding hands there will always be conflict even in the 24th century Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 well i think the wars have been good for star trek it has brought a whole new generation /audience to star trek and plus it cant always be peace and quiet and holding hands there will always be conflict even in the 24th century agree - the wars are always good. You can always be guarenteed that when theres a war - you will get at least a season of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiteShdw Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 The Defiant is pretty much the only ship that the Federation ever built that could pack a punch. Even though in TNG they bragged about how powerful the Galaxy-class starship was, I never saw it do anything amazing in any of the battle scenes. Of course, on TV, the power of the ship really depended on what they needed for the storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 The Soverign Class starship was also powerful but the Enterprise E might have been the only one built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 The Soverign Class starship was also powerful but the Enterprise E might have been the only one built. No, there was also the prototype, the USS Sovereign. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayjay21 Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 thats the USS Sovereign was the 1st of that class and i'm sure there will be more than just 2 of that class they need strong fast and powerful ships to help defend the federation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Well at the time of say First Contact there may only have been the Enterprise E and the Sovereign though we didn't see the Sovereign in Star Trek except in the games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcroft Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Probably just done so that the audience wouldn't get confused though tbh. The only exception to that rule is back in the good TOS days when you had to reuse the same model for everything :D I still say though that whilst the designs of many Starfleet vessels are more then impressive - the designs are fundamentally flawed - and this is coming from a trekkie. I mean on the majority of Starfleet ships - the warp nacelles are extended from Pylon - and whilst this helps protect the crew from the warping of time and space, makes it a very tempting target for enemy fire. Even the idea of a saucer section leaves a ship vulnerable from certain areas of attack. With regards to my Galaxy Class comment - just a reflection of the apparent take that the producers decided to go - just showing how vulnerable these vessels are. It isn't that the designs are bad; it's just that these ships were never designed as combat vessels!! They were exploratory vessels with a bit of firepower to protect themselves during missions of exploration. Furthermore, it is so that Starfleet was not intended as a military organisation, but as an exploration wing for the Federation. They have been forced into the role of military defenders because there is no other organisation capable of doing any defending. With the release of newer models, like the Akira-class, Defiant-class, Sovereign-class, there has been more emphasis on the military part of their duties (which at first was hardly present). In the Galaxy Class case - this was supposed to represent the be all and end all in current Starfleet tech - and so would represent all the latest offensive and defensive capabilities that Starfleet have to offer. Re Akira and Sovereign- think its just more of a sign of the times of different people coming up with new hull designs based on classics, such as the Miranda and Constitution class. Gotta love the Akira though - there is just something about that design, imho anyway - speaking of which - has anyone noticed how the Sovereign class could almost be two separate designs when looking from the top and from the bottom - I think that they just look like two radically different ships. Food for thought anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcroft Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 The Defiant is pretty much the only ship that the Federation ever built that could pack a punch. Even though in TNG they bragged about how powerful the Galaxy-class starship was' date=' I never saw it do anything amazing in any of the battle scenes. Of course, on TV, the power of the ship really depended on what they needed for the storyline.[/quote'] Yeap - that kind of owns any arguements there - although have to say they did blow up the Defiant - which pissed me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Didn't they blow up the original defient, and call the new one the defient also? did they blow up the second one too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beawulf Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 No they only blew up the first defiant I agree that the general design hasnt changed alot since the nx-01 (defiant being the exception), I would have thought they would have learnt some good designs from other species they encountered, if not hundreds of years of ship building. I personally wouldnt put the bridge on the outer hull, they use viewscreans anyway, no need to be near a window that can blasted open, venting you into space. I think someone should start a poll for best ship design of all the species ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccrmastr Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 wtf u guys talk like it's real. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TetsuoShima Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 I think someone should start a poll for best ship design of all the species ;) Great idea! I'll get right on it! :cyclops: Edit: Here's the first one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 wtf u guys talk like it's real. lol isnt it real, in our imagination, in our hearts, in our dreams...some times i think it to be more real then reality... Ok, that was a littel corney... But coming from a person who joined a day ago i woulnd start out by insulting ppl, ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFMF Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 wtf u guys talk like it's real. lol isnt it real, in our imagination, in our hearts, in our dreams...some times i think it to be more real then reality... Ok, that was a littel corney... But coming from a person who joined a day ago i woulnd start out by insulting ppl, ;) Clearly soccrmastr is not a Trekkie!! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShadow Posted September 12, 2005 Share Posted September 12, 2005 BUT I AM !!!!!!! any ways back to the topic, if the federation just made a lot of defient class, and stole the ship design of the D' dextra class ship from the roumulans then they would be fine...er than b 4. with the D'dextra class ship they would be able to do great things, since the D'dextra has a STATE OF THE ART SCIENCE FACILITY ON BOARD, also it is 2x biger than the galaxy class so mass evacutations would be easyer and it has an array of defences. The Defient can pack a punch so they could defent the border. wow, that is kinda cheesey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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