Theory of evolution vs creationism

[Ruk]

I think you'll find that all public schools still teach evolution even if they also teach intelligent design.

 

Generally however public schools teach evolution very poorly, only casually mentioning it. Most schools don't want some creationist coming in and arguing with them. Our students suffer as a result. Your own misconceptions about what evolution show me you were never "taught" what evolution truly is.

 

If man is best suited for survival, why are there still other animals?

 

This statement is just a logical leap waaaay off the charts. Evolution certainly doesn't predict that the end result is one species. It only predicts that species which aren't able to adapt to changing conditions may die off. Our own species depends on others for survival. Cooperation and dependency are valid strategies and seen throughout the world among different species.

 

In any case, you totally misunderstand evolution if you believe that humanity is any more evolved than a dog or other animal. We are all equally evolved for our surroundings. Dogs have adapted to their current situation the same way humans have. Breeds that didn't are now extinct.

 

Has the missing link been found?

 

Several times. We've discovered thousands of fossils that satisfy scientists. But of course anytime an evolutionists places a new discovery on the chart, creationists point to the new gap between it and the previous one.

 

However fossil evidence is no longer the only way to judge evolution. Genetic drift has fully supported what we've seen in the fossil record, with apes and other mammals having the expected diversity in their genetic codes we'd expect.

 

Are people walking out of the jungle who were apes yesterday?

 

Doesn't work that way, so no. The apes we see today are NOT what we descended from in any case, but just as evolved through the ages from a common ancestor.

 

So we're left with a choice between theories and no real evidence to support either, so why not teach both as theories?

 

There is ample evidence supporting evolution which is why its considered science. Nothing we observe about the history of our planet makes sense unless put in the framework of evolution. As yet we have not discovered one piece of evidence refuting evolution!

 

Intelligent design on the other hand has its whole basis in a negative (what we don't understand must thus have been a result of a creator)... and as such has been disproven several times. Founders pointed to things like the Bombadier beetle and the development of the human eye as being "too complex" and thus designed. But both have since been readily explained.

 

For any idea to be considered a true "theory", it must not only explain the past, but also predict the future. Evolution does so... as it predicted things like super-virus developing that are resistant to anti-biotics which we see today.

 

What predictions does intelligent design make? Nothing.

 

[GlaC]

I love Sci-Fi and I don't believe in Evolution (If man is best suited for survival, why are there still other animals?) or the Big Bang (The universe is created by a big explosion? What exploded? There was no universe, so there was nothing that could explode.) And what research supports this? Has the missing link been found? Are people walking out of the jungle who were apes yesterday? It's all too vague. So we're left with a choice between theories and no real evidence to support either, so why not teach both as theories?

 

Before you say anything, first actually know something about what your talking about... It's quite obvious you know nothing about the evolution and Big Bang theory, so why do you judge it? The evolution theory is actually the only theory that is supported by some scientific evidence... And it's not vague, you just don't know anything about it, not even the basis. No wonder, you don't understand it... No offense btw.. But thats what your post tells me.

 

Also strange that you don't believe in Evolution theory because of the lack of evidence.. While religions don't have any kind of evidence at all. (i'm not sure if you believe in any religion, but just if you are...) It is a proven fact, with todays knowledge, the bible can't be taken litteraly...

[quosego]

To all anti-evolution people. I (or my medical-biology book) will now try to explain evolution , hopefuly after reading this you will understand evolution and accept is as the most likely truth. I say most likely because allthough evolution has not yet been proven wrong this can still happen. (but you'll need loads of evidence and an darn good theory)

 

Evolution/natural selection:

 

The history of life, as documented by fossils and other evidence, is a saga of a changing Earth billions of years old, inhabited by an evolving cast of living forms. This evolutionary view of life came into sharp focus in November 1859, when Charles Robert Darwin published one of the most important and controversial books ever written. Entitled On the Origin of Species by Natural Selection, Darwin's book was an immediate bestseller and soon made “Darwinism†almost synonymous with the concept of evolution.

 

The Origin of Species articulated two main points. First, Darwin presented evidence to support his view that contemporary species arose from a succession of ancestors. Darwin called this evolutionary history of species “descent with modification.†It was an insightful phrase, as it captured the duality of life's unity and diversityâ€â€Âunity in the kinship among species that descended from common ancestors; diversity in the modifications that evolved as species branched from their common ancestors. Darwin's second main point was to propose a mechanism for descent with modification. He called this evolutionary mechanism natural selection.

 

Natural Selection:

Darwin synthesized his theory of natural selection from observations that by themselves were neither new nor profound. Others had the pieces of the puzzle, but Darwin saw how they fit together. He inferred natural selection by connecting two readily observable features of life:

 

* OBSERVATION: Individual variation . Individuals in a population of any species vary in many heritable traits.

 

* OBSERVATION: Overproduction and competition . A population of any species has the potential to produce far more offspring than will survive to produce offspring of their own. With more individuals than the environment can support, competition is inevitable.

 

* INFERENCE: Unequal reproductive success . From the observable facts of heritable variation and overproduction of offspring, Darwin inferred that individuals are unequal in their likelihood of surviving and reproducing. Those individuals with heritable traits best suited to the local environment will generally produce a disproportionately large number of healthy, fertile offspring.

 

* INFERENCE: Evolutionary adaptation . This unequal reproductive success can adapt a population to its environment. Over the generations, heritable traits that enhance survival and reproductive success tend to increase in frequency among a population's individuals. The population evolves.

 

Darwin called this mechanism of evolutionary adaptation “natural selection†because the natural environment “selects†for the propagation of certain traits. Figure 1 summarizes Darwin's theory of natural selection. The example in Figure 2 illustrates the ability of natural selection to “edit†a population's heritable variations. We see the products of natural selection in the exquisite adaptations of organisms to the special circumstances of their way of life and their environment.

 

Figure 1

Figure 2

 

So now that you know what evolution is, try tackling it. (that's science, you make a theory and wait untill someone else makes a better one)

 

[Tenebrae]

It does make it hard to take creationism seriously when so many of its advocates choose to equip themselves with determined ignorance.

 

Now of course we have religious beliefs masquerading as scientific fact. A really good way to get ID out the way would be to exploit its obvious flaw. Under the guise of sceince - the chubs behind are saying "oh, the designer could be anyone".

 

So all you do is get a bunch of people to start vocally linking Intelligent Design with aliens and get that to gain some profile and I'll wager the idea will start to get written off. Intelligent Design is not good science, it's a good strategy to put the US where a bunch of rich white republican guys want it to be.

[p3master]

I vote other but im not going to go in to that.....because there are lots of deceive people here.... i mean religious people. I think that there is no need to argue with then because their lack of knowledge. They should try to read more books and i dont mean books with religious contence.

 

I totaly agree with quosego of the Darwin thing. But hows everything been created i have my own theory. I dont belive in big-bang but do believe that theory of evolution is true.

 

And wahaha you should stop read bible/some internet sites for your facts you should try a real school book writen by scientist.

 

Theory = Not true until proven but could make alots of sence.

 

This cabon thing works and i cant believe what some here says. Please pick up a book in physics and read the chapter of radioactive half life. Its true that its not accurate as everyone would want it to be.

[z3r0sn3akr]

evolution - bah!!

 

haven't u all noticed that every one leaves out the THEORY part in the THEORY OF EVOLUTION??

evolution is for ignorant bastards.

i belong to no faith yet i do believe in intelligent design. u honestly cant believe that humanity and every living organism 'evolved' from a single bacterium, and if u do, where the hell did that first bacterium come from?? there has to be some sort of higher power that put us here. possibly a fourth dimension being? commonly known on earth as God, or Allah or Shiva or whatever. again, evolution is for the ignorant. and so is religion: u cant explain the higher powers tha govern us.

[GlaC]

You can't either. But i can see you know nothing about evolution aswell, as you don't know how life supposedly started.

Theory also doesn't mean it isn't true, and if there was no possibility at all that there is a truth in evolution, then it would have been thrown away a long time ago... Also the evolution theory isn't a matter of believe, its a matter of scientific research, which has backed up the ET so far... How is scientific evidence which points into the direction of evolution, ignorant btw? Your guessing, based on nothing, gets nobody nowhere either... A fourth dimension being?

[Tenebrae]

I posit a correlation between the inability to use correct English spelling and grammar and the inability to create intelligent or cogent arguments.

 

Let us call it - the theory of poor education.

 

And as so many seem to be struggling with what a theory is:

 

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. Scientific theories are never proven to be true, but can be disproven. All scientific understanding takes the form of hypotheses, or conjectures.

[Carlvsi]

I voted Big Bang/Evolution because I believe them to be about right in theory, but this doesn`t mean that I do not believe in some other form of intelligence higher that us. That is theoretically possible too, although I would discount a God/Creator/Creatress/Creatrix who designed everything.

 

Personally, (and I`m in for some stick here) I think that we have interupted or changed natural evolution.

With modern ethics and medicine more and more people are being able to reproduce that would not have done so. This IMO is causing more genetic anomolies that we are seeing, these are not always beneficial to us as a race. Think how many more people are suffering from genetic ailments nowadays, we intervene and the `bad` gene is transferred to another generation. I`m not saying that we should cull the genetically weak, but I do think that we should be aware of it and how it is going to affect the next generation. (not TNG lol)

Maybe if gene therapy was like it seems to be in ST then it wouldn`t matter, you could `cure` a person on a genetic level and therefore it wouldn`t be passed on. As it stands we do not know enough, all we seem to do is patch people up and hope for the best. It seems to me that I am always hearing of some new genetic disorder on the news and we still don`t fully understand what is the cause.

 

As has already been mentioned, the most obvious examples of evolution are Dogs, Bacteria and viruses, but this doesn`t mean that it isn`t happening elsewhere, think about what we don`t know, species yet undiscovered.

 

Take the sea creatures that live near undersea vents, we didn`t think it possible not so long ago, but there they are, opening up possibilities for life existing outside our planet, is it Titan or Io where they think microbial life may thrive.

 

Evolution just makes sense to explain the diversity yet similarity of all life as we know it.

 

My dream of the highest intelligence is the Universe itself as explained in B5 by Delen. We are all part of it trying to understand itself. The Ether if you will.

 

Here endeth the first lesson according to Carlvsi. :p

[Hilander72]

I posit a correlation between the inability to use correct English spelling and grammar and the inability to create intelligent or cogent arguments.

 

Let us call it - the theory of poor education.

 

This proves it!!! :cyclops:

[quosego]

evolution - bah!!

 

haven't u all noticed that every one leaves out the THEORY part in the THEORY OF EVOLUTION??

evolution is for ignorant bastards.

i belong to no faith yet i do believe in intelligent design. u honestly cant believe that humanity and every living organism 'evolved' from a single bacterium, and if u do, where the hell did that first bacterium come from?? there has to be some sort of higher power that put us here. possibly a fourth dimension being? commonly known on earth as God, or Allah or Shiva or whatever. again, evolution is for the ignorant. and so is religion: u cant explain the higher powers tha govern us.

 

In science everything is an theory, there is no such thing as an absolute certainty. Not in science not anywhere. But you can assume that evolution is the most likely candidate. It explains everything and there is litterally tons of evidence, sounds like a darn good theory to me.

 

I will try to explain to you were that bacterium came from. (an bacterium is already pretty advanced)

 

billions of years ago the earth was a pretty crappy planet containing al kinds of molecules drifting around doing nothing. Untill they collide and form bigger molecules, after doing that a few times they can become organic molecules, as proven by the sciencetists A. I. Oparin and J. B. S. Haldane.

 

An collection of those organic molecules (including an lipide mebrane structure) could potentially result in an protobiont. This litle thing/creature has some basic metabolism and some sort of mebrame. Experiments have also shown that this could have happend.

 

Now that we have an spontaneously formed protobiont, we can add to this little fellaw. Eventually he will find replicating molecules like RNA to incorperate in his structure, to be able to reproduce certain information. These strands of RNA will already adapt themselves to their surroundings creating the most efficient piece of RNA.

 

After this the RNA can create basic catalytic aminoacids and after that a few peptides. Including enzymes for replication and enhancements. So after this our litle creature can produce it's own enzymes and peptides. You can understand that this creature has an massive advantage to any other creatures around. This will result in many more of these creatures.

 

Now that the creatures contain RNA and replicates things, they make errors resulting in more diversity. And with the right error another creature is more advanced than the previous. This eventually result in an human, which is just the sum of a lot RNA/DNA errors. (btw DNA is just a more advanced form of RNA)

 

This as basic as I can put it. If you don't understand certain words wikipedia will help you out.

 

[Exterus]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. Wahaha, you are so wrong that it actually hurt my eyes to read some of your posts. Evolution is a fact in almost every sense of the word. There is mountains of evidence supporting it. When people say "well, most people seem to leave out the "theory" part of the theory of evilution...blah blah", a statement like that only shows how ignorant some people are of scientific processes. From that point they try to take it further down the slippery slope, insinuating that if it is only a theory then it must be little more than a guess and should not be considered as a viable explanation of the wide variety of life that we observe on earth today.

 

Well, evolution is a theory and it is also a fact. Evolution is defined as a change in allele frequency in a population over time. Evolution has been observed in nature. Evolutionary Theory, explains the mechanisms of evolution (the fact). Scientific Theories are not merely guesses as the ignorant Creationists try to portray them. Scientific Theories describe a large set of observations with as few arbitrary elements as possible. Good theories make predictions about future events and are always falsifiable. This means that there must be some way to render the theory false, if indeed it is false. A good theory also shows a mechanism, and in the case of evolutionary theory, the mechanism of natural selection has been widely observed and demonstrated.

 

Evolutionary theory is the cornerstone of the biological sciences and without it nothing makes any sense at all. Evolutionary Theory has become stronger and stronger throughout the years despite many attempts to falsify it. Sure, scientists have disagreed about the specific mechanism of evolution, but to try to use this as a wedge to discredit evolutionary theory and sneak their god in the back door of the Science classroom is dishonest and laughable. Creationism is not a theory or a fact and I challenge any creationist to show me just one tenet of creationism that is scientific, just one.

 

In fact, Creationism is the opposite of science. In a nutshell, science observes, then explains. Creationism starts with a rigid conclusion and then looks around for natural phenomena that might support this conclusion. This is the same thing as shooting an arrow into a wall and then painting a bull’s eye around it. Science is self-correcting and ever changing. If a theory is falsified, science picks itself up and starts looking for another explanation, for science has no other agenda. Creationism cannot be falsified, it is inflexible, never changing. Creationism is religious dogma and nothing else.

 

I have a few questions for Creationists:

 

* Please use creationism to explain the development of drug-resistant strains of bacteria. Ask your doctor why you need to take all of your antibiotics when prescribed. That is evolution, observable, verifiable and demonstrated in your own body.

 

* Please provide a creationist explanation of sickle-cell anemia's relationship to malaria, the Peppered Moth, Australian rabbits and myxomatosis, or the presence of gills and tails in the early embryonic stages of virtually all vertebrates (including humans). Use your precious and much vaunted but never demonstrated creation "model" to explain the presence of vestigial hind legs in numerous snakes and whales. Explain why God would have created over 250,000 different species of beetle. Why did God create over 2,000 different varieties of fruit-fly (25% of which can only be found in Hawaii)? Why did God create muscles that allow us to move our ears? What is our appendix for?

 

* There are some 8,600 species of birds so far described and 3,700 species of mammals. 20,000 species of fish are documented out of an estimated 40,000 believed to exist. Known insect species number over 850,000 and this is estimated as being fewer that 1/5 or even 1/10 of the total number in extant. The number of catalogued flowering plant species is over 286,000 and about 4,000 more are catalogued every year. The number of different species of fungi is in excess of 40,000. If you add it all up you get over 1.6 billion different forms of life on this planet. Since over 99% of all life forms that have ever existed are now extinct we end up with a total species number of as high as 16 billion. Please explain why your creator went to all this effort only to give one species any special favors. How did Noah manage to place at least 3.2 billion different life forms on the ark?

 

* Which of Noah's children were black? Which were Korean, East Indian, Hispanic? Which had blue eyes, green eyes, hazel eyes, brown eyes? Which were albino? Which of Noah's children had brown hair, black hair, blonde hair? Which of Noah's children had syphilis, AIDS, gonorrhea, tuberculosis, polio, smallpox? Which of Noah's children had congenital heart defects?

 

Come on, big mouths, put up or shut up. Lets see this creationism of yours start explaining things. No one needs to defend evolution any more. That hasn't needed to be been done for over 100 years. If you can't get with the program, get out of the game and relegate Creationism to where it belongs, in classes on Religion, not Science. Only the irrational, the intellectually impaired and the incredibly stupid can't see that evolution theories such as theory of change by decent through modification are the only demonstrable means of explaining the wide diversity of life that we observe on this planet.

 

This issue makes the U.S.A. a laughingstock to the rest of the world and should have been dead and buried decades ago. It makes me sick to have to continue to fight this flood of ignorance in this day and time, but hopefully truth and science will prevail and mankind will one day throw off this yoke of myth and superstition.

[magestorm]

Creationism: God made everything, as the bible says

Intelligent design: No matter what we find, God did it

Evolution: Looking at remains, scientists have discovered that organisms randomly mutate, pass on the changes, and eventually creates a totally new species.

 

Hmmmmm. Guess which one is based on facts, while the others just expect and demand belief.

 

As far as proof, look at how things have been going. As our use of tools has refined, our fingers have grown skinnier. Our bodies have grown taller, even without growth hormones. Don't believe it? Take a look at armor. Over the course of centuries, people have naturally grown taller.

 

Now, why isn't there fossils all over if this is the case? Easy. Not every bone will become a fossil. Most bones do not fosilize. Instead, they break down, and fertilize the soil. Only when certain conditions occour does a bone fosilize. Depending on the conditions, anywhere from a few hundred to millions of years is what it takes to turn bone into stone.

[Tenebrae]

Hmm, I just had a thought.

 

Now - obviously, we're all aware of the fact that the Bible goes on about Genesis. Some people like to take that as the literal truth.

 

Question - do they also believe that all languages originated at the Tower of Babel and have remained utterly unchanged since God smote man for his insolence.

 

The Bible was written at a time when people didn't understand concepts like the evolution of life or the divergence of language. It a time when pretty much everyone just thought God did everything. To be honest, letting the Bible form your views on scientific matters two millenia later is just crazy but you know - go crazy.

[quosego]

Hmm, I just had a thought.

 

Now - obviously, we're all aware of the fact that the Bible goes on about Genesis. Some people like to take that as the literal truth.

 

Question - do they also believe that all languages originated at the Tower of Babel and have remained utterly unchanged since God smote man for his insolence.

 

The Bible was written at a time when people didn't understand concepts like the evolution of life or the divergence of language. It a time when pretty much everyone just thought God did everything. To be honest, letting the Bible form your views on scientific matters two millenia later is just crazy but you know - go crazy.

 

This is so true. You can however believe in the wisdom of the bible and apply it to your life. For instance don't kill anyone (something some religious people seem to forget a lot -> crusades, extremist jihad) and help people in distress.

 

But to assume that the bible has anything else to say than that is just well unintelligent.

 

[Exterus]

This is so true. You can however believe in the wisdom of the bible and apply it to your life. For instance don't kill anyone (something some religious people seem to forget a lot -> crusades, extremist jihad) and help people in distress.

 

But to assume that the bible has anything else to say than that is just well unintelligent.

I don't need the bible to tell me not to kill anyone. I don't kill people because depriving someone of his life is wrong. And I help people in need (well, as often as I can anyway) because it's the right thing to do. No one should need to consult a fairytale book to realize that. Contrary to what many seem to believe, this kind of moral code was around long before the bible.

 

As Albert Einstein (who was religious, I might add) said:

 

"A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

[jhug666]

At least for the big bang + evolution there is evidence that supports the case, there may be a few holes in it , but overall it makes more sense that this whole Intelligent design.

 

face it people the universe is a random occurance and so are you!!!

[magestorm]

Well, that religion slays me anyways. Do not kill is a commandment, but people kill in his name. Gotta love it.

[Tenebrae]

The ultimate irony?

 

Most religions pretty much qualify as memes - ideas that persist via what amounts to natural selection. Outlining codes of conduct that were - at the time - necessary for survival. Would an all knowing God REALLY be pissed at you for eating bacon? Probably not but you know, a few thousand years ago - not the safest thing in the world to be eating.

 

There is a "godspot" in the brain for some people. Studies of identical twins show that in almost all cases, regardless of upbringing, both twins will either be religious or areligious.

 

Patronising as it is - I believe that religion is ultimately a nice big blanky to wrap yourself up in. What could be more comforting than knowing that there is some all knowing, all powerful, all loving (delete as appropriate) being out there? He loves YOU and if you do what he says, you'll have a whale of a time when you die.

 

Quite an incentive really - be a good person now and reap the rewards in the world to come?

 

That versuses the more nihilistic - the universe occured randomly, the Earth formed over millions of years as part of an accretion disc around the Sun, cooled. Eventually after many millions more years and by yet another random chance, the Earth is suitable for life and somehow from nothing comes life. Many more millions years later and by more random chance, Man evolves.

 

And of course, with no understanding of how anything worked in the world did things like Sun worship etc. Ultimately, these polytheistic trends being anthromorphised and in the case of the Abrahamic religions, all reconciled into a single easy to worship figure for your spiritual pleasure.

 

It's not inevitable that religion and science will clash... but I think what is inevitable is that religion will never be happy with science poking its nose in because the beliefs aren't purely abstract. Science will challenge things that religion holds up as true - the geocentric universe, the literal truth of creation, homosexuality as a "lifestyle" choice. One can only hope as time progresses, that science will win out over superstion.

[GorunNova]

The funny thing about all this is that the religion vs. science thing has been going on since the times of the ancient Greek philosophers...