Hellsfury Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Consider: Truth is a concept borne by humanity, a label for humanly certifiable "fact" and the opposite of "non-fact." As such might it not be said that in the context of the Universe and it's inifinity composed fabric, (ie: an infinite number of equations allowed, an infinite number of realities co-existing) "truth" has no validity beyond use as a "rail" against the chaotic ravages of ignorance? OF course different cultures have different truths- the simple juxtaposition of the human mind on a constantly variable environment produces differences in the "labeling" of facts as percieved by a human mind- language being an easy example (english say "potato", French say "pomme de terre"(apple of the ground) - while they label the same object exactly, the difference between the languages alters the truth as known by english person or french person.) If we go by the seahorse culture as opposed to human, their reproductive experience is opposite to ours-males bear children rather than females. (thus instantly bursting the universal truth mantra) Knowing that such differences just within earth-based cultures exist, the natural conclusion is that there can be no Universal "truth" unless the universe if filled with clones of earth. However, I "think" there may be a way to say that a Universal truth can exist...for one if every single human moment produces a "spin-off" universe in which the events of each moment are played out differently, the existence of such alternate realities would be "true" in the context of our Universe creating alternates of each moment and it's awareness that it does so. Also if such a thing holds true then in some alternate Universe Men ALWAYS bear children, ( yes scream now)... In terms of the impact upon knowledge, and with my slight disclaimer that I don't set firmly to anything...My agreement with both statements would likely place knowledge in the singular role of the "possible" fact, fact which, if not in this universe, then in some other is universally accepted and thus Truth is entirely within the realms of the infinite unknown quantity that "may" be the universe... Somebody tell me if that made any sense (Starting early on my Uni Philosophy course :P) ^_^ viva la infinite perplexity. Oh wait...even Gene Roddenberry's quote "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" backs me up ( ???) yey ! *coughs* ending rant ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svendopel Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Yes fact is by consensus, but only because people are scared to face change unless of course their mates are holding their hands!! so....how does the truth fit in with meeting your emotional needs? im sure that it can be agreed that truth has basis in emotion. after all if not for truth is it not possible that truth could be absolute. god, has to be the biggest example of truth and different communities basically how perceptions differ between social group is based on need, not fact. so in that sense i would have to agree with asmodeusca. consensus. (almost) with religion people simply have to accept it and belive, but if asked what the truth is...........they may not know rambling now. onto my last of three deadlines including dissertation this week.,.........anyone got a phaser, im ready to go on a roaring rampage B) Haven't a clue what your smoking to keep awake but don't blow it in my direction! get stuffed, dopey :cyclops: I leave dope for sponging full time student like you matey boy.! As for facts, scientist thoughout history have gone with popular theorys and called it fact and all because of consesus of the many! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 a fact is provable and irrefutable. if its not irrefutable, then its not a fact Because the majority deem it so. Your argument beckons circular. A liar's paradox of sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmodeusca Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 dude how can a fact be by concensus? a fact is provable and irrefutable. if its not irrefutable, then its not a fact if you dont know what a fact is i can lend you a dictionary ;) This is circular. I agree facts are provable and irrefutable. Provable to whom? Irrefutable by whose standard? The answer is the group. Which group depends on what base of knowledge you wish to access. In any case you are relying on an agreed to standard within the group. A consensus. In practice we label many things as fact which later we prove wrong. Many times the group is wrong. Just as the term 'impossible' really means 'not possble with our current knowledge base'...fact means...'irrefutable within our current knowledge base'. So facts are only facts as far as we can tell by methods we have collectively created. It is this consensus of a group that makes it a fact.....or truth. The whole point is moot since the search for absolute truth is a fool’s errand. Avoid black and white. Life is only worth living in the grey :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmodeusca Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 <...>In terms of the impact upon knowledge, and with my slight disclaimer that I don't set firmly to anything...My agreement with both statements would likely place knowledge in the singular role of the "possible" fact, fact which, if not in this universe, then in some other is universally accepted and thus Truth is entirely within the realms of the infinite unknown quantity that "may" be the universe... <...> If we accept infinite universes and infinite possibilities than doesn't everything eventually becomes true and false? If this is the case then the only absolute truth would be existence. Analysis of this existence would never complete. OUch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 dude how can a fact be by concensus? a fact is provable and irrefutable. if its not irrefutable, then its not a fact if you dont know what a fact is i can lend you a dictionary ;) This is circular. I agree facts are provable and irrefutable. Provable to whom? Irrefutable by whose standard? The answer is the group. Which group depends on what base of knowledge you wish to access. In any case you are relying on an agreed to standard within the group. A consensus. In practice we label many things as fact which later we prove wrong. Many times the group is wrong. Just as the term 'impossible' really means 'not possble with our current knowledge base'...fact means...'irrefutable within our current knowledge base'. So facts are only facts as far as we can tell by methods we have collectively created. It is this consensus of a group that makes it a fact.....or truth. The whole point is moot since the search for absolute truth is a fool’s errand. Avoid black and white. Life is only worth living in the grey :p in science there is a difference between accepted theory and fact. eg. the sun is hot. we know this because science has proved it, and we feel its heat every day. then it could be argued that it is hot on what scale. well its quite hot. so a proof and a quantifiable one. while how hot cos no one has been there to find out exactly how hot would be accepted theory because opinions on the method of calculation may differ, it is certainly a fact to say it is hot. anything that can project heat this far is hot. have a good day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Yes fact is by consensus, but only because people are scared to face change unless of course their mates are holding their hands!! so....how does the truth fit in with meeting your emotional needs? im sure that it can be agreed that truth has basis in emotion. after all if not for truth is it not possible that truth could be absolute. god, has to be the biggest example of truth and different communities basically how perceptions differ between social group is based on need, not fact. so in that sense i would have to agree with asmodeusca. consensus. (almost) with religion people simply have to accept it and belive, but if asked what the truth is...........they may not know rambling now. onto my last of three deadlines including dissertation this week.,.........anyone got a phaser, im ready to go on a roaring rampage B) Haven't a clue what your smoking to keep awake but don't blow it in my direction! get stuffed, dopey :cyclops: I leave dope for sponging full time student like you matey boy.! As for facts, scientist thoughout history have gone with popular theorys and called it fact and all because of consesus of the many! i called you DOPEY. B) would you like me to teach you to read too? ...and matey boy? who are you, captain pugwash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svendopel Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Yes fact is by consensus, but only because people are scared to face change unless of course their mates are holding their hands!! so....how does the truth fit in with meeting your emotional needs? im sure that it can be agreed that truth has basis in emotion. after all if not for truth is it not possible that truth could be absolute. god, has to be the biggest example of truth and different communities basically how perceptions differ between social group is based on need, not fact. so in that sense i would have to agree with asmodeusca. consensus. (almost) with religion people simply have to accept it and belive, but if asked what the truth is...........they may not know rambling now. onto my last of three deadlines including dissertation this week.,.........anyone got a phaser, im ready to go on a roaring rampage B) Haven't a clue what your smoking to keep awake but don't blow it in my direction! get stuffed, dopey :cyclops: I leave dope for sponging full time student like you matey boy.! As for facts, scientist thoughout history have gone with popular theorys and called it fact and all because of consesus of the many! i called you DOPEY. B) would you like me to teach you to read too? ...and matey boy? who are you, captain pugwash? No Master Bates!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonHelton Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 One thing is for certain.........If we don't figure out a way to get rid of the blinding white backgrounds on the quotes, I'm gonna scream!! :mad: Yes, it hurts my eyes! :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svendopel Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Sorry will stop quoting my quotes and the quotes of other people quoting me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werecow Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Sorry will stop quoting my quotes and the quotes of other people quoting me! can i quote you on that???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svendopel Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 Sorry will stop quoting my quotes and the quotes of other people quoting me! can i quote you on that???? Of course!! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmodeusca Posted March 20, 2005 Share Posted March 20, 2005 <...> while how hot cos no one has been there to find out exactly how hot would be accepted theory because opinions on the method of calculation may differ, it is certainly a fact to say it is hot. <...> I'm not going argue the sun is not hot :) I have no counter evidence and accept the proof. Nor is it useful in a day to day sense to consider a small (very very small?) chance that we feel heat for some other reason. However, I think you would agree it is POSSIBLE we/they are wrong. I guess I've beaten this to death so I'll bow out of the conversation. It is fun to ponder this stuff every now and then...good topic. Very applicable to a Science Fiction forum where many of the technologies we enjoy watching (i.e. transporter technology) are scientificallly impossible or if possible...would led to castastrophic results according to our understanding of mass and energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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